don't click here

New Sonic 2 development lore drop - Genocide/Cyber City palette and art!

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by The Joebro64, Mar 19, 2023.

  1. Hez

    Hez

    Oldbie
    I've got the level layouts translated in the Nick Arcade format (I think, it's been a good while since they were converted). So they are ready to go upon release of everything else. I think I chose that format because it doesn't include the background.

    I'd be willing (when the time comes) to also separately release the object/art stuff, but I'd want to be clear that this would be my own interpretation and not to be taken as real. It may make it easier for others to do their own ROM hacks with their own interpretations.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  2. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

    Oldbie
    1,342
    1,267
    93
    Anything you're willing and able to do is welcome. It's impossible to recreate these lost levels with 100% certainty since they only ever got so far into the design phase to begin with. It's already impressive that we've learned as much as we have over the past few years.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  3. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    quick thing before this topic just gets dropped, mind you that Sonic CD had firefly badniks too and it was in development during the same timeframe :V
     
  4. Ch1pper

    Ch1pper

    Fighting the Battle of Who Could Care Less Member
    849
    107
    43
    Life.
    Dammit, I can't keep track of these two threads. :V In line with the ghost discussion, I'm crossposting from the other thread:
     
  5. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

    Oldbie
    1,342
    1,267
    93
    While it does have some of the ambiance of a haunted house, the original masa demo still carries more sci-fi/space ambience vibes to it, similar to the final version. Genocide City is still the only other late game stage I could see it being used in an alternate scenario.



    I'd still love to see a faster paced remix used in GCZ/CCZ specifically, though at no point was there ever evidence of a change in tempo being planned. I just think it'd work nicely.
     
  6. Battons

    Battons

    Shining Force Fan Member
    I did some sniffing around Hidden Palace’s discord and saw that Frank/Game History Org. is looking at releasing the raw files at some point *maybe* next month. Which tells me that even if it isn’t released next month he’s gotta be getting pretty close to finishing his work on the documents. A bit let down I had to dig somewhere else for an update but I figured I’d share it here for you all.
    IMG_1619.jpeg
     
    • Informative Informative x 17
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  7. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

    Oldbie
    1,342
    1,267
    93
    So here's a thought experiment.

    Knowing what we know now, if a modern GCZ/CCZ were to ever be built, how would you place it into the current version of Sonic 2?

    In retrospect, storywise it was heavily tied to a radically different story scenario and level layout. How would a 3 act version of the level that partially recycles Metropolis assets feel after the already lengthy Metropolis Zone itself (which serves the generic purpose of "Eggman's Factory Level"), without any time travel being involved?

    Would it work as a launch site for the Death Egg, and a potential transition into Sky Chase? Would it make the game's narrative feel stronger, or strongly bog it down? Would a length 1 act version be better, or the full 3 act original layout be preferable? Could it work as an alternate route to the Death Egg instead, bypassing Sky Chase and Wing Fortress similarly to how the Sonic 2 Lost Levels hack uses it?

    In a way, it makes a lot more sense why this zone was cut now, as very cool as the concept was. With the need to cut down stages and strongly rework the game's narrative to be much simpler, a second asset flip level almost felt redundant in what was already a reasonably long game (remember, no save files in 1992).

    Naturally, I'd still love to see a full hack of the stage incorporated in a Sonic 2 version eventually (preferably a decomp), but it's become so much clearer to me why the game ended up the way it did. If Wing Fortress was designed from scratch (or from unused ideas) after this level was scrapped, it's actually a very cool compromise and still one of my favorite classic levels, even as just a one act.
     
  8. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

    The Voice Maestro Member
    1,072
    843
    93
    Cyber City
    Mega Man Zero: The Definitive Dub
    I would do the very simple thing that we thought GCZ was all along and just have it be MZ Act 3. It would just take place deeper inside Metropolis. Stick DEZ's music on it and reuse WFZ's music for DEZ since it's only a few seconds long anyway. Metropolis being 3 acts already feels like a flaw, so having the 3rd act have a unique palette and music (and perhaps a separate boss) would go a long way towards making up for it.
     
  9. Mr. Cornholio

    Mr. Cornholio

    Member
    137
    79
    28
    In a scenario where Cyber City was the only prototype level that could be fully realized and put into the game with the protoype levels cut? Eh, yeah. I'd have to agree with making it a special one Act area before the player enters Sky Chase, while using the layout Metropolis Act 3 has. I really can't think of a good place I'd plop it in the final level order because plopping it right near the finale I think would've created fatigue with the level theming. Maybe it'd work if you heavily nerfed Metropolis, cut it down to 2 Acts, and stuck it right after Chemical Plant? Then Cyber City would take Metropolis' place in the final level order. This would also have the nice benefit of making it so that the player experiences 3 completely unique Single Acts before taking on the game's final boss too.

    Honestly I do think the game is stronger as a whole without a full 3 Act Cyber City. I don't believe there's anything really suggesting how the Death Egg 'launch' would've played out prior to the Time Travel ditching/the birth of SC and WF? Would it have been a small non-interactive cutscene? Did the concept of the Tornado/Tails flying just not exist until the original entry point was removed and they came up with the plane idea as a quick compromise to explain how Sonic is suddenly in the air? I'm not familiar with any material on how that idea came to be existing anywhere. I imagine it originally played out more like it did in 3K where Sonic latches onto it by running up and jumping onto it unless something says otherwise.

    To me, as cheesy as it sounds, the Tornado is such a strong focal point to Tails' character in the later titles and even in Sonic 2 itself. I can't really imagine Tails' character without the plane at this point. Him usually being seen as the driver quickly establishes him as the technical know-how of the group. I love how it's handled in Adventure 1 with the character growth of Tails gaining independence away from Sonic and repairing the plane after it was shot out of the sky. If that sort of thing didn't exist prior to everything that occured with Sonic 2's downsizing, then perhaps that bit was for the better.

    Even ignoring that, I just think Sky Chase and Wing Fortress are more interesting conceptually. You can argue about the level design, but theming-wise I think it's a bit more interesting that takes place over the sky instead of a moody-purple Metropolis. It's pretty cool even if a fair amount points to this just being a really last minute idea to fill out the game a bit.

    If I can shill for someone else's work, Sonic 2: Anniversary Edition from SHC2022 has a toggle to re-skin Metropolis Act 3 to work the same way you're describing (though I believe the design is untouched from the Simon Wai build). Really solid hack overall! I appreciate the more extra stuff to put it on terms with 3K and the ability to use the 2-Player tracks (I actually prefer 2-Player Emerald Hill over 1-Player Emerald Hill). I'd definitely recommend anyone reading this give it a shot. It's kind of my 'go-to' version of Sonic 2 if I don't want to mess with the 2011 remaster.

    It also has an option to just outright skip Metropolis which is literally the only Zone in Sonic 2 I dislike (I believe this is an unpopular opinion though and I keep seeing people say they hate Oil Ocean as well).
     
  10. Apologies for being rude, but I don't see how the thought experiment is relevant to the topic at hand. I'm following this topic for information regarding prerelease materials, not made-up "What If?" scenarios that have no bearing on the materials we've been discussing.
     
  11. Chimes

    Chimes

    The One SSG-EG Maniac Member
    754
    542
    93
    We ran out of materials so we're making up our own
     
  12. Mr. Cornholio

    Mr. Cornholio

    Member
    137
    79
    28
    Apologies. My post can be deleted if necessary.

    I'm still curious what on earth a transition to Death Egg would've looked like in a scenario where Cyber CIty was the last 'regular' multi-Act Zone however, but I guess there doesn't seem to be much information regarding that unfortunately.
     
  13. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

    Oldbie
    1,342
    1,267
    93
    The point of the thought experiment (and much of this thread) is also to discuss the implications of what we know about released material, and not only how it was used, but how it both could have been used, and how it might be used in the future (hacks, ect. ect.). After all, at no point were these levels ever built fully, so speculation is always going to be a bit of how we understand these ideas, and how they changed over time, and even why.

    We've been doing discussions like this for 40+ pages. It's a lot more relevant than the general speculation about other (mostly unrelated) zones that once filled this thread. It's also similar to the way content was discussed in the R2 thread, which I oversaw since Origins started (and funny enough, is now helping a team out that's actually working on a hypothetical, playable version of the zone).

    We've learned a lot over the past few years. It's worth reviewing how it's shifted our expectations on how deleted levels were planned to be used, vs how we once expected them to be used. Some of us have spent years dreaming of a "complete" Sonic 2, only to discover the version we once dreamed of never was anything very close to what was originally planned. This is also a bit of a catch all thread for ideas related to GCZ/CCZ in general at the moment, and I believe that question is better asked here than in the general sonic 2 lore thread since most of the relevant info is 'not' in that thread, but in this one.

    It's interesting to compare those ideas, and it helps us better understand the context of why changes were made.

    So yes, you are being rude. Stop that.
     
  14. Nik Pi

    Nik Pi

    Member
    492
    317
    63
    Kazakhstan
    Sonic 2: Archives
    It's Sonic Retro, baby. Get used to it :V
     
  15. Hez

    Hez

    Oldbie
    Honestly, I'm assuming it was handled similarly to launch base. That, or it was that you literally walked onto the Death Egg. I don't think it was as fancy as we think.

    On the subject of the stuff being released, I'd say it's very soon.
     
  16. Sparks

    Sparks

    Member
    3,148
    186
    43
    Sondro Gomez / Kyle & Lucy
    I figured that if the developers had time to implement Cyber City as they initially planned it (since it got far enough to have 3 acts drafted) that Metropolis would've simply had 2 acts, and would've been two "mechanical" zones back to back, ala how Mania led from Metallic Madness to Titanic Monarch. I assumed the idea was that Cyber City being Metropolis' Act 3 was a cope with the crunching deadline, increasingly compromising and mutating until Metropolis Act 3 became what it is in the final game. If this was implemented into a ROM hack, I'd sooner just have a new song composed in a similar style to Dreams Come True's compositions.

    Looking forward to it! Very curious to see how the level maps might've played out given their design.

    It'd be the perfect Christmas gift. :V
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • List
  17. Londinium

    Londinium

    People actually read these? Member
    Let's troll the inevitable influx of YouTubers making Sonic 2 cut content videos by feeding them false Sonic 2 development info right now
     
  18. Well that could end disasterously, or disasterously funny.

    Sure, I would laugh my ass off at people thinking the flaming skull thing is real again, but at the same time, I think it might be better to not do that and spread known truths.
     
  19. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

    Oldbie
    1,342
    1,267
    93
    I'm sorry, what was that? That hip American Pop Band Maroon 5 ghost wrote the entire soundtrack for Dreams Come True and recycled a secret unused Genocide City theme into one of their greatest chart topping hits!?



    What a revelation!

    (Now we're actually getting off topic. I'll stop.)
     
  20. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,410
    1,010
    93
    Well, the timeline documents seem to imply that the Neo Death Egg is just the ol' Death Egg, which already launched in the ruined present. So I think it's more likely it was already airborne by that point.

    If that's the case, then maybe the cutscene after GCZ3 would have been more akin to the cutscene at the end of WFZ? Eggman escapes to the Death Egg in a spaceship but Sonic hitches a ride?

    Or maybe Eggy is already in the Death Egg, so Sonic boards a rocket ship at GCZ3 to reach it ala SA2?

    Speaking of which, this is just conjecture, but if the Death Egg is indeed already airborne and Eggy is in it, then maybe it's responsible for the destruction of the island between GCZ's acts 2 and 3? Like, Eggman gets really desperate to stop Sonic and fires the DE's death beams at the island in an attempt at eliminating him? You know, like the Lava Reef boss, but on a greater scale.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2023