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New Sonic 2 development lore drop - Genocide/Cyber City palette and art!

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by The Joebro64, Mar 19, 2023.

  1. saxman

    saxman

    Oldbie Tech Member
    He was a teenager back then. We said all kinds of things back then that, in retrospect, were just absurd. I insisted with "proof" that Sonic CD's development began from a very early prototype of Sonic 2. So I don't think what we said over a quarter century ago when we were still kids should hold much scrutiny today.

    But he said they thought song 03 fit the level better, so they went with that. It doesn't matter what was intended at the end of the game's development, because song 03 was intended for the stage early on and therefore provides precedent to use it again.

    Now, my personal opinion is both songs fit the level just fine. But it depends on what kind of mood you want to set for it. Song 10 works only in the context of "this is a special place". If it was just a run-of-the-mill stage, I'm not sure it fits the best. Song 03 will fit regardless of context.

    And I think 10 was intended for some purpose other than regular level music originally, otherwise why would the song have an ending? But they adapted it to be a level song, because they decided they wanted it for that purpose.

    Of course, we can never know for sure without someone on the payroll confirming or denying it.
     
  2. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    Reminder that dev documents suggest Hidden Shrine/Palace was going to be a cutscene-only area, with it being later reworked into a full level.

    Do we know for certain that MCZ 2P was actually intended and composed for HPZ, as opposed to them simply using the currently implemented song that fit the best at the time? Because not all songs from the final game were present in early protos.

    I think MCZ 2P works only for a generic cave level. Obviously HPZ as planned originally for Sonic 2 wasn't just a random cave, but a hidden ancient shrine/palace/temple/structure with strong ties with the Chaos Emeralds and/or time travel. Now the 2013 remaster's HPZ can more easily pass off for a generic cave level, what with its lore being stripped off, though it could be argued there are many factors that make it "special", such as the facts it's a) a hidden optional level, b) the only new zone added by the remaster, c) a single-act zone, d) it shares its name with the lore-relevant Hidden Palace from S3K, e) is a recreation of the most famous scrapped Sonic 2 zone, and f) it features a number of unique features and gimmicks that wouldn't have been possible in the original MD version, like that pulley with smooth rotation.

    Not counting the remaster, none of the versions of HPZ we have are complete and final. Even if the Simon Wai proto's HPZ was more complete than the stripped down CENSOR HPZ, that doesn't make it definitive (or more "legit") nor an accurate representation of what the final level would have looked like.

    At some point they implemented a looping version of track 10 and assigned it to HPZ. That was no mistake, it was a deliberate move on the devs' part. To say that doesn't count is to be strangely selective.

    Not to mention that track 03 is already used in the final game for something else, MCZ 2P, and no songs were shared between 1P and 2P levels. The remaster assigning it to HPZ breaks that rule.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2024
  3. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    See ya starside. Member
    Is it really even up for debate that Final Oil Ocean theme was intended for Sand Shower? The likely internal level slot used it in Wai. It’s an unambiguously desert themed tune and we only know of one desert level. The bulk of the OST was likely composed early enough that Samd Shower was still on the table.

    I think the reason they rearranged the music late in dev was to make the most use of what they had paid for. SCZ and WFZ both used the same track at one time, and 2P did not use unique zone themes. Had they not done this, there would be more than just one unused track.
     
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  4. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I'd say Oil Ocean is a distinctly Arabian themed song and fits Oil Ocean better than any other song would. Could argue for weeks! Background of Oil Ocean is also a desert.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2024
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  5. There is one thing that both Oil Ocean and Hidden Palace share, and that’s their music being reassigned in the first known Beta of the game (CENSOR).

    CENSOR is also the first version to have a seperate 2P mode music playlist, which makes me think that the reason OOZ uses track $04 and HPZ track $10 is because their original songs ($08 and $03, respectively) were repurposed for the 2P mode playlist.
     
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  6. Hez

    Hez

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    Also, to piggyback off of this, I think this kind of hits home that the teams internally were kind of in their own bubble at times. The person dealing with music may have still not gotten wind that the level was cut, and reassigned appropriately. Their fork of code wasn't put in until later. Just a theory, but it adds up on how stuff works even now.

    Also, if I recall correctly I believe that Wood Zones music assignment was strictly a carry over from Sonic 1? As in, it never got assigned anything. The value itself didn't even match the format or something. Was this updated too, even though it was still Metropolis as the song?
     
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  7. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    Likely, I feel like some point in development, the team realised that in the time they had left that:

    1. They were gonna have less levels made than they had music tracks for,
    2. Multiplayer was gonna be a rather limited affair with about three zones.

    As such they likely assigned three of their more dispensible 'bouncy' tracks to the multiplayer race versions of stages and assigned Oil Ocean and Hidden Palace with the slower unused tracks that still sorta befit the 'atmosphere' of their design, meaning until HPZ also got the cut, all their themes would still get some usage.

    I have my suspicion that at some point maybe track 10 was gonna be the theme for the 'Warp Point' where you shifted between time periods. There was potentially something mysterious and ominous about this place with so much power.

    On the other side of the coin I do wonder what EHZ VS' theme was originally intended for. Unlike the other multiplayer themes, I don't think it was ever assigned to a level, not even a blank one. A lot of hacks assign it to Wood Zone but, like Hez said, it was seemingly never given an official theme besides sharing Metropolis' theme.
     
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  8. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I believe it's generally accepted by this point that warp point is Hidden Shrine/Palace, going from dev docs and quotes.

    People have opined that it had a "sunny" vibe to it, so it might have been intended for Tropical Sun or Ocean Wind. Of course, that's pure speculation.

    Personally I think that theory has merit, and never understood the logic behind assigning it to Wood Zone in hacks. It always felt too cheery for that level.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2024
  9. Brainulator

    Brainulator

    Regular garden-variety member Member
    Well, the format is the same, but both songs are indeed $83 (at least pre-August 21).

    Anyway, here's Stealth arguing about Hidden Palace Zone's music in 2015 (and where I found it).
     
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  10. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    So much for the whole "that was when Stealth was a teen, he's probably much more mature now" thing. By 2015 he was still trying to push his opinions on the matter as fact, disregarding and trying to discredit any opposing views ("that music only works with the level that was ultimately created if you're wearing a nostalgia filter") and even badmouthing ROM hacks ("This is not a crappy fan hack with a million random and practically useless options"). I like how he gets called out for it in both links.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2024
  11. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    Really though, they could have simply made the argument that their take on Hidden Palace is faster paced, so suited the earlier more frenetic music choice. Even better observed with Proto Palace which keeps both Track 10 and the original slower more majestic layout.
     
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  12. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    Yeah, Wood Zone always gives me sorta dark dense forest vibes. I feel like Mystic Cave's 2P track would fit well with it, honestly.

    (this is not an opinion on what tracks I think were meant to go with what levels)
     
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  13. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    Really it's hard to get a real vibe of Wood Zone without that many gimmicks established for it or even the level art fully finished. Is it a quirky peaceful wood or an ominous treacherous one?

    Most of the fan recreations that have unique music tend to have their rework suit it. Time Quest has a kinda quirky playful track for lack of better terms, fitting you bouncing and spinning around on the flowers and branches, while Classic has an upbeat but hard metal track, befitting it being a wood contaminated by industry sawing it down.
     
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  14. Hez

    Hez

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    upload_2024-10-8_19-38-4.png
    This is the guy Sega chose to do their stuff. Incredible.

    I'm not sure if I believe his statement that the song was specifically composed for Hidden Palace either. His ego seems to scream that he'd try to use some mental word gymnastics to push his agenda.

    On the actual subject, were the music IDs that were carry overs all $8X vs $0X? It'd be a semi-strong indication that they were at least intentionally changed in the final.
     

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  15. Chimes

    Chimes

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    That is so bellicose. Jesus.
     
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  16. Hez

    Hez

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    upload_2024-10-8_22-7-34.png

    I really really do want to know what this was.
     
  17. Utmost technically speaking, even in the final, the tracks are $8X, so we should technically be referring to $03 as $83, $10 as $90, and so on. The sound test just subtracts the $80.
     
  18. Hez

    Hez

    Oldbie
    I may be mis-remembering. I recall there being some indicator that they were Sonic 1 leftovers, but it may have been something else.

    Something purely speculative, but this topic rising made me think of pulling it back up again. When replacing some of the tiles in Metropolis with the ones outlined in the documentation, some of the tanks start to look almost like batteries.

    upload_2024-10-8_23-52-28.png upload_2024-10-8_23-52-42.png

    It's absolutely obscurely clever reuse of tiles in this zone to achieve this if that was the route they were going. It also really gives new meaning to Flying Battery zone in Sonic 3k. If the correlation was there, just purely out of coincidence, then kudos to them. Again I think it's all pure coincidence with the name.
     
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  19. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

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    Pretty sure the battery in Flying Battery was in reference to an artillery battery, not a device that stores power.
     
  20. Sonic Hachelle-Bee

    Sonic Hachelle-Bee

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    I can explain my logic for Long Version back in 2004. There were 4 new zones: Wood zone, HPZ, desert zone (named Dust Hill) and Genocide City. I wanted to have a unique music for each zone, and back in 2004, it was not easy to compose a new one (and I didn't want to). The only option was to recycle the 2PVS themes, which I assumed were not designed for them in the first place anyways.
    • The music of the 2PVS zones were reverted to their 1P game counterparts.
    • Track 10 was for HPZ. No doubt that if HPZ was released in 1992, it was going to use this track, intended cutscene or not.
    • EHZ 2P was the easiest one to assign to Wood zone. It is cheerful. I wanted the zone to feel like Zelda OOT Lost woods and Seiken Densetsu 3 Lampflower forest.
    • CNZ 2P didn't fit the desert zone and not so much the spooky Genocide City. However, MCZ 2P did fit the many cave parts of the desert zone. So, CNZ 2P went to Genocide City by default.
    Isn't Flying Battery a reference to artillery batteries?
     
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