don't click here

New Sonic 2 development lore drop - Genocide/Cyber City palette and art!

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by The Joebro64, Mar 19, 2023.

  1. Sparks

    Sparks

    Member
    3,171
    192
    43
    Sondro Gomez / Kyle & Lucy
    Just to reiterate, I meant 2P Casino Night; I think Oil Ocean is one of Sonic 2s best compositions.

    Advanced Edits interpretation is very underrated. It's an original, fresh take on the stage, but most important to me is that it's also very polished, which can make or break a lot of ROM hacks and fan games.

    With this thread bumped back up, I don't even remember if we're waiting for more scans or if everything has been published already.
     
  2. Jaxer

    Jaxer

    Member
    710
    488
    63
    Can't say about the scans, but Frank did discuss the possibility of interviewing Brenda, while Beep21 should still have at least one more Yamaguchi interview coming.
     
  3. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    See ya starside. Member
    I hope we can have more materials of the Desert stage someday. Isn’t it said that a layout for it was actually made?
     
  4. Jaxer

    Jaxer

    Member
    710
    488
    63
    According to Brenda, yes. And based on what she's told us previously, there's a build which has it implemented at least partially.

    Might not be anything more impressive than what Wood Zone looks like in Simon Wai, but it'd still be an incredibly find. We obviously have all the S2 prototypes that were shown off in public, but the fact that we've actually managed to find prototypes of Sonic 1 and 3 has me convinced that massive discoveries could still be right beneath our noses.
     
  5. To be fair, the actual Sand Shower ground assets were underneath our noses this whole time, so it makes sense that perhaps there could be some level of other existing Sand Shower data out there…
     
  6. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    See ya starside. Member
    Thing about the S1 and S3 protos is they both appear to be leaks from the press (someone never returned the carts). Both of those builds feature prominently in magazines at the time. The only thing publicized by SEGA regarding Sand Shower is the mock-up we’ve all seen a million times.

    I get the feeling that any additional surviving materials outside of SEGA’s vault will be a lot like those digitizer printouts and paper layouts on grid paper.

    It’s also alleged that there was a build with a completed Hidden Palace and we haven’t seen a lick of that. Not doubting that there were builds like this, but they were likely entirely internal forks never merged into the main branch.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  7. Jaxer

    Jaxer

    Member
    710
    488
    63
    If such a build were to exist, there's a zero percent chance that Sega has it. Because if they did, Stealth would've modelled his Hidden Palace after it.

    And while we're on this topic, anyone else feel like "The demo track doesn't loop" is a really flimsy reason for assuming that Track 10 was supposed to be cutscene music? Sure, the long outro is quite unusual, but is it really that different from Green Hill's intro never repeating?
     
  8. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

    Member
    2,536
    729
    93
    Really, I'd have said after Taxman and Stealth searched through SEGA's vault that should have been it, but after we got all these breakthroughs just recently, I feel like nothing is really totally out of the realm of possibility anymore.

    Imagine telling someone a decade ago that we actually found Cyber City level art and asset work, or even just morsels of the Sand Shower level tiles in original quality. Hell tell them we have an actual image of what the Winter Zone would look like.

    Sonic 2's development is just a gift that keeps on giving. :P

    Ah right. I see. Admitedly most attempts at Genocide/Cyber City tend to use VS CNZ or DEZ. There's admitedly not a load of better befitting tracks in the game.

    There is one remaining 'unused track' I guess, and reworked a little, I think might actually fit as CCZ's theme:



    (How fitting it even uses Long Version's Genocide background XD.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2024
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  9. Chimes

    Chimes

    The One SSG-EG Maniac Member
    993
    700
    93
    Yeah, where did that come from, anyhow? I first saw it mentioned on TCRF but haven't really heard about it here.
     
  10. Hez

    Hez

    Oldbie
    This is kind of where I think terminology gets muddied up with some of the artists, and some of the devs. Do I think builds existed with test layouts of Sand Shower? Yes, I do. Do I think these builds survived? No. I don't. I think they were quickly overwritten while testing other things. So Brenda could have seen a "build" of Sand Shower, but its life likely was cut short in forked build that has been long since erased. (it's the same reason Hidden Palace has a level select icon. That fork of development survived to make it into the final)

    Now do I think Hidden Palace had level maps made? Yes. I believe they may still exist somewhere. The reason Stealth, and other newer developers have not used these is because they likely have never seen them as well. A lot of these people that worked on the game packed up their stuff once everything was done and put them in storage underneath their stairs, or right behind the extra set of sheets and linens that they'll someday get to that is right behind the halloween decorations. We're a very niche group, and they don't really feel like digging these out.

    I think we'll see more on paper someday. I think a majority of the digital assets though are fairly dry.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  11. Jaxer

    Jaxer

    Member
    710
    488
    63
    From Stealth, actually. I can't find the actual quote right now, but he was the very first person I've seen suggest it. And with all due respect, I kinda feel like this conclusion was most likely fueled by a personal preference of Mystic Cave 2P over Track 10.

    But anyways, I've just updated the Wiki page for Genocide City Zone. I did a lot of minor corrections and clarifications, but my main contribution here was cleaning up all remains of the "Metropolis Zone Act 3" -days into their own little corner about fan speculation.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  12. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,623
    1,097
    93
    Honestly? I've long had the same impression. FWIW I can vouch that Stealth has a history of trying to discredit the track 10 = HPZ thing, dating back to the the late 90s/early 00s. Back then he would argue on Usenet that the song couldn't possibly be for HPZ solely because it didn't fit according to him. It was after the demo track was released that he added the "it appears to have an outro" ammo to his argument.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2024
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  13. Hez

    Hez

    Oldbie
    It explains why 2P Mystic Cave is in the mobile port. I thought that was such a poor decision since it still plays in 2p mode as well. I'm surprised they let him do that, but it helps explain why. Ego be a strong drug.
     
  14. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

    SAY HELLO TO MY CHOCOLATE BLEND Member
    3,310
    2,977
    93
    One oddity is that track #10 wasn't assigned to Hidden Palace in a build until it was in the process of being removed. It's still using Mystic Cave 2P in the September 14th build; CENSOR's the first one to use track #10. It's impossible to say which track was the intended one without confirmation from a developer, and I'd be willing to bet most of them have long forgotten. (And, as per usual, do not pester them about it.)
     
  15. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    See ya starside. Member
    I suspect it was originally written as the ending theme. We know the actual ending theme based on Sweet Sweet was commissioned later in development, a bit unusual considering it was supposed to be a one and done deal with everything they thought they’d need.

    No stage tracks ever had endings like that, no need to write one if meant to loop. I suspect they were trying to repurpose it for HPZ late in dev as they were reassigning other tracks for 2P, hoping to get HPZ in.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  16. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    ooor it could be because it is literally used for HPZ in the protos? the same protos that the mobile games have as a level select-exclusive secret level? (called Proto Palace Zone IIRC) Mind you, it also needed to be approved and run through Sega too, and they definitely had the will to put the kibosh on things like a unique boss rush mode or Desert Dazzle appearing in the CD remake.

    like, those versions of it burned to cartridge are the only concrete things we have regarding this zone, so any "best guesses" would have to go with...what we have. not what we think it had. we have the cartridges and the ROM where it was indeed used for it.

    as to why it uses track 10 later on, I think they had already scrapped its use as a full level by that point and probably were going to have it as a one-off as stated by other devs*. they needed a full, looping track for Mystic Cave 2P, and it fits well, so they went and used it instead of asking their extremely expensive pop star to pull another one out of thin air.


    *additionally, the CENSOR proto already has its level art nuked, so I imagine this idea was extremely short lived. Arguably the only even remotely-complete and comprehensible versions of this level are the ones that have the 2P MCZ theme, which, again, is why most people would go with that since you'd want to base it on the most concrete and "finished" version we have.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  17. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    to elaborate, if Sega themselves thought it was too inaccurate or unfitting, they would've made them change it, like they did with going "no unique assets and level design for a unique boss rush zone" and "do NOT put in an almost entirely new zone made up of speculation into Sonic CD". track 10 is not a secret - they even released it officially on the 1&2 OSTs on disc, so it's not like they would've had cause to hide it. Additionally, I did check and Proto Palace Zone uses track 10. So they had it both ways, it's just that the version that most players will actually see uses what was very likely the most "authentic" (to borrow the turn of phrase from the CD article about R2) track for that zone as intended.

    "so you're saying CENSOR doesn't count"

    yeah. the version where all the level art is gone because they decided at that time (or, arguably, long before then, because all the protos we have of it before that show very few changes) that it is absolutely dead is not a "real" version of the level. it is not outright nuked probably because it was too late in the process to outright nuke things without messing up the builds, and they were extremely pressed for time to make sure the cart didn't explode when you ran into a corner funny.

    Despite our wealth of proto ROMs, we don't have any actual, existing version of this level with track 10 on it, probably for the reason another poster mentioned before about those forks not making it in (and/or having their changes overwritten when merged). And without them, we're in the realm of speculation as to what might have been, which Sega themselves didn't like Taxman and co delving into in the one or two attempts they tried to.

    like, Sega holds all the cards. at the end of the day, they were the ones who would demand changes or things being scrapped because it "wasn't authentic enough", and they were the ones with what dev material they might have left. and they absolutely did say no to things that went too far because they still wanted the games to be close to what was intended. with that in mind, what, exactly, does that say that the level that a player can reach fully intentionally in the normal gameplay loop is using mystic player 2P? IMO it says that they thought it was the "closest" to what barely-functional version of it they had at some point that they knew of.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  18. Kilo

    Kilo

    Starting new projects every week Tech Member
    1,241
    1,189
    93
    Canada
    Changes with the weather
    2013 could have at least made it played the Death Egg theme after you collected 100 rings :V
     
  19. Hez

    Hez

    Oldbie
    With this mentality, that would mean that Oil Ocean zones true music is 2P Casino Night. Which selfishly, I think fits much better than the final.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  20. CaseyAH_

    CaseyAH_

    human incarnation of Palmtree Panic 'P' Mix Member
    This isn't that uncommon an opinion amongst people who are knowledgeable about proto stuff I think, especially those who think Oil Ocean's final music belonged to Sand Shower at some point.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List