New info on MJ involvement?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by serpx, Oct 4, 2013.

  1. serpx

    serpx

    Member
    566
    2
    18
    Clarification on Michael Jackson's involvement from Gametrailers

    Since apparently they did their own research, versus research done here previously, I'm assuming this is new which is why I'm posting it. If not, my apologizes. I know this has been a major topic in the community for years, like Sonic X-Treme, so I love seeing it resurface.
     
  2. TimmiT

    TimmiT

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Member
    Haven't watched the full video yet, but it's nice to see them link to our wiki and also QJIMBO's video.
     
  3. Afro Thunder

    Afro Thunder

    Call Da Doctor! Member
    368
    21
    18
    NS, Canada
    Trying to get outta Dr. Dre mode, and actually release an album.
    So basically, the "unnamed source" pretty much confirms what Brad Buxer had previously said: Michael Jackson left due to quality issues. While it's nice to have another source to back that claim up, I still can't help but find that iffy, at best. There still gotta be something up with the music though if Brad Buxer is still refusing to openly comment on the whole thing.... I mean, isn't 20 years more then enough time to come out and outright say "MJ did this and that"?

    So while we may have another source for why he left, we still don't know what songs are confirmed to have been composed by MJ in game, aside from the obvious.
     
  4. OKei

    OKei

    OKeijiDragon Member
    1,481
    24
    18
    Video Basement
    This "mystery" source that gave some VERY specific details of Jackson's involvement including the specific tracks he composed... I wonder who he is? I wonder why didn't GT talk to Naka-san about this subject, even after Hector's testimony.

    This is by far, Pop Fiction's most intriguing episode. I hope they (or anyone else) don't stop researching this particular subject, I still think there's more to learn about MJ's involvement in this game.
     
  5. Afro Thunder

    Afro Thunder

    Call Da Doctor! Member
    368
    21
    18
    NS, Canada
    Trying to get outta Dr. Dre mode, and actually release an album.
    I don't think they could research it more if they wanted to. If I remember correctly, Cirocco Jones said there was a lawsuit over the tracks concerning royalties, plus Sega would likely have a whole new headache in the form of the Jackson Estate if they found out about MJ's involvement with the game (I think the latter is also the reason why Sega decided not to port Moonwalker to the Wii's Virtual Console back in '09).

    Also, I'm certain somebody asked Yuji Naka about MJ not long after Qjimbo made his documentary (pretty sure it's in the Sonic Retro archives somewhere) and he deflected it, leaving them with no info.
     
  6. GeneHF

    GeneHF

    SEGA-ier than you'll potentially ever be. Site Staff
    8,393
    1
    18
    Scenic Studiopolis
    Complete Global Conquest
    No one will speak of it because of ongoing legal stances. It's a murky situation to say the least (and largely why Sonic 3 doesn't get full representation at times.)

    Do note that both of Sonic 3's Generations levels were from Sonic and Knuckles, and many raised an eyebrow to Mushroom Hill.

    Though, I imagine the top zones were something like Sky Sanctuary, Ice Cap, and Flying Battery.
     
  7. Afro Thunder

    Afro Thunder

    Call Da Doctor! Member
    368
    21
    18
    NS, Canada
    Trying to get outta Dr. Dre mode, and actually release an album.
    Didn't some of Sonic 3's music make it into Generations as alternate stage music, though?
     
  8. Meat Miracle

    Meat Miracle

    Researcher
    1,654
    4
    18
    All tunes of S&K were already in Sonic 3, except for a few short jingles (knuckles theme, title, extra life, most of them by Howard Drossin).
     
  9. Shadix

    Shadix

    Oldbie
    955
    0
    0
    I doubt it was Naka if thats what you are thinking. Naka was very opposed to giving details about the music of Sonic 3 in other interviews where the question had been brought up.

    That said, this made me squee all over the place to see new details on this subject. :3

    Kinda wish there was concrete citeable information though about the fact that Howard Drossin's soundtrack was for the most part not used in the game despite him composing new tracks. Its interesting with this alternative explanation because at both SAGE and his MAGfest 7 panel he confirmed that he was brought onto Sonic 3 when Michael Jackson was cut, reinforcing Roger Hector's story.

    Its totally possible that Hector was operating independently of the development team like the inside source mentioned and they weren't on the same page communication-wise, possibly due to language barriers? I could see in this case that perhaps Hector had no idea that Michael Jackson had left the project on his own merit due to the sound quality issue, was told about the scandal, commissioned Howard to write new music, and then after the music was submitted it wasn't used because it was all a huge misunderstanding.

    These sort of communication mishaps are not uncommon.
     
  10. Spanner

    Spanner

    The Tool Member
    3,313
    118
    43
    United Kingdom
    Sonic Hacking Contest
    Yet do remember the 2.5D interpretation video of Mushroom Hill which most likely secured the level for Generations...even if it was only the 3DS version.
    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxXycBv3Rlk[/youtube]
     
  11. Shade

    Shade

    Member
    Whoa, I'm mentioned by name in an episode of Pop Fiction. Awesome! Nice to be recognized for your accomplishments. :)
     
  12. The KKM

    The KKM

    Welcome to the nExt level Member
    2,179
    29
    28
    Portugal
    IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog comic books
    Yeah, I figure the best way to interpret both events without assuming Roger's lying to protect the sound chip would be that MJ left of his own accord, but that fact wasn't spread around- and thus instead many on the team assumed it was because of the scandals.

    Great episode, though. I had never watched this show- are other episodes as good? They even list sources and links, that's great.
     
  13. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    What? Black or White was composed for Sonic 3 as well? I'm speechless. :O EDIT: Oops, it wasn't!

    I didn't know of these Pop Culture guys before, but... they rule.


    EDIT: My guess is that Black or White was the original title theme.
     
  14. TimmiT

    TimmiT

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Member
    Pop Fiction is generally pretty good, this was one of their longer episodes as well. Think of it as some sort of Mythbusters for videogames, this episode being a bit different from normal as usually they try to see if a "gaming myth" is actually in a game by trying to access it without cheats. And even if you already know about the "gaming myth", they still go into detail of where it originated from and other details and they try to contact people involved (like they did in this episode).

    Older episodes don't list sources and links though.

     
  15. Captain L

    Captain L

    The guy who likes Shadow the Hedgehog Member
    2,390
    6
    18
    Waiting for the coming of the Great White Hankerchief
    Great episode, but I do have to question how the problem was the Genesis sound chip was the issue with Jackson, when his name was prominent in the credits of Moonwalker. I would think that he had a problem, he would have voiced it back then.
     
  16. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    But, then again, that was way before the SNES had spoiled everybody with their sample-based instruments. I'm sure that must have had something to do with his views on the sound quality.
     
  17. The KKM

    The KKM

    Welcome to the nExt level Member
    2,179
    29
    28
    Portugal
    IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog comic books
    No, at least if I got them right MJ offered SEGA the chance to use Black or White, but his lawyers said no. Black or White wasn't done for Sonic 3, he just thought it'd fit in.

    @TimmiT- Good stuff, then. I'll give it a watch later.

    @Captain L- I've no idea, but I'd assume Moonwalker didn't involve MJ directly- mostly just him saying "sure use the soundtrack for the film", while Sonic 3 was his first direct contact with composing directly with the sound chip.
     
  18. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    But... they had already made a chip version of it and all according to the video, so I assume they knew where it was going to be used.

    EDIT I hadn't checked the release date of Black or White against Sonic 3's, you're right. =|
     
  19. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

    Member
    2,423
    44
    28
    UK
    Right, so I believe in Roger Hector.

    This anonymous source is a bit shifty- I'm under the impression that people who were working on the project and who may have been close to Michael (and looking to defend him) or were misinformed for whatever reason about his parting believe that he left because he didn't like the sound quality. We're told things like "It's just my guess" and "I think" rather than they actually know.

    Right, so get this; I'm being told that Michael Jackson was a huge fan of Sonic The Hedgehog, of which there were two previous games in the series, as well as having his own game... and only realised that he didn't like the quality of sound coming from the Mega Drive until after he'd made all the tracks to the game!? That is pretty difficult for me to swallow frankly, and I don't believe it.

    I'm also aware through being a bit of a fan of MJ that he was pretty stubborn with his music if he felt the sound wasn't right and could be difficult to work with as he was a perfectionist, but Sonic 3's soundtrack has always been highly praised, and even now you would find it difficult to argue that the quality of the soundtrack isn't fantastic, decent quality for the Mega Drive or catchy as hell.

    What's more, the timing of the scandal (mid 1993) fits perfectly with the development timeline of Sonic 3. The only proto's we have for Sonic 3 are dated early '94 when the game was close to completion though, so who knows when the music was reworked.

    Now, here's some more food for thought;

    Michael Jackson is credited as "Zones 2 and 3" for the game. This is music that I think sounds the least like Michael Jackson's music along with Angel Island, so was it reworked by someone else, taken out completely, or was this the reason Michael Jackson was unhappy?

    Obviously, music like S3 Credits (Stranger in Moscow) and Carnival Night (Jam) are pretty much identical to the Michael Jackson songs, but as it's been revealed, he didn't create them, it was other composers who did that for him, which is why they were able to be left in the game.

    Lastly, Sonic 3 as we all know was to be one game and had to be split in to two. Is it possible that if MJ really did have to pull the plug on his music (of which we know he was meant to do pretty much every track to the game) that extended time had to be spent recreating the music, and thus being the cause of the game having to be split to avoid delay in release?
     
  20. The KKM

    The KKM

    Welcome to the nExt level Member
    2,179
    29
    28
    Portugal
    IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog comic books
    I don't think it's so farfetched he'd dislike the sound chip- one thing is what he heard as a player, maybe going "this sounds cool but rough", I don't know, speculating as much as you here; Then when he gets to be on the "producing" side, he realises that it wasn't the fault of the musicians but the material himself, or he previously liked it but upon experiencing it as a tool grew to dislike how what he imagined didn't translate correctly to what the console output. The perspectives of a passive appreciator and an active creator are always different.