Music

Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by Canned Karma, Mar 22, 2010.

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  1. Namagem

    Namagem

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    Holy crap, I'm subscribed to you on youtube! I didn't really expect you to contribute, but I guess it makes sense that you're a fan of the project. Having your music in the game would blow my mind.
     
  2. dummeh

    dummeh

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    And another one - needs tweaking and little bits fixing. Any comments or crits are welcome.

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VnXiI5SgIwM&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VnXiI5SgIwM&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
     
  3. Tweaker

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    I've got a few questions and suggestions regarding the stuff you're using in your Hill Top mix.

    First off, how are you currently handling electric guitars? They sound very "thin" and don't seem to carry the songs along at all as most rhythm guitars would. Are you using the built in rhythm guitar in Kontakt? If so, I'd advise against it; it doesn't sound very good and it doesn't have much dynamic or realistic sound to it. I'd suggest either picking up the Shreddage library for Kontakt or using RealStrat with Amplitube for electric guitar. It's just better.

    Secondly, assuming you're using Kontakt's built-in basses, I strongly suggest lowering the velocity on the lower notes in the bassline to about 70%, making the high bits 100% (so they do that sort of "slap," but not really) and boosting the low and mid EQs ever so slightly in its built in equalizer to bring out the sound a bit right now. You seem to have all the notes in right now as the highest velocity, which severely takes away from the bass EQs in the song and leaves it sounding badly mastered.

    I arranged a <a href="http://tweaker.sonicretro.org/music/Hill%20Top.mp3" target="_blank">quick cover</a> of Hill Top in FL9 from scratch to illustrate how I think the harmonica, bass and brass could be better. Everything uses Kontakt except for the harmonica, which uses the FluidR3 soundfont with some reverb. Drums use the high quality Sonic 1 DAC samples; hi-hats use the Battery3 General Kit.

    Hopefully this can help you sort out some of your weird instrument issues. The mix sounds very messy at the moment; this should sort it out.
     
  4. dummeh

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    The electric guitars are RealGuitar passed through Guitar Rig. I've not used Kontakt's built in rhythm guitar (I don't think I even have it at home, as I haven't updated my Kontakt library in a while). My intention wasn't to get a completely realistic sound out of the - I do have Shreddage and originally tried with it, but it just didn't seem to fit.

    The bass is a mixture of a few things, Kontakt's bass layered with a couple FM8 patches. Dropping down the lower bass velocity 70% removes that nice growl it has going on - the Funk bass has quite sensitive velocity layers. The low and mid were already boosted 2.8db and 1.8db, respectively. Any more and it starts to drown out the mix a bit.
     
  5. Tweaker

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    Yeah, the problem with using RealGuitar for electric guitar is that it's... well, acoustic. It doesn't really have the same sound and it kind of falls short when you run it through an amp. I mean, unless you loaded an electric guitar sample set into it or something. Otherwise, if Shreddage doesn't sound good for you, RealStrat is made by the same group (MusicLab) and works much better in that context.

    Also, the reason such a prominent bass is important is because Masato Nakamura—the composer for the music in the first two Sonic games—was a bassist; as such, the songs had very prominent and powerful basslines that brought everything together. Hill Top in particular relies on a... bassy bass, so to speak, so to have all of these articulations without much punch to the bass sounds very awkward and out of place for the song. Everything else is quite nice, though.

    By the way, I listened to your Wing Fortress arrangement and I was totally blown away. Your skills at making orchestral scores are practically unrivaled, but I do think your mastering could use some work when straying outside of that genre. Your Emerald Hill is a great start at that. Remember that when it comes to Sonic music in particular, though, emulating all of those little humanized intricacies is not always the best way to get the music sounding great; sometimes that lack of subtlety and sort of "fake" feel (for a lack of better word) can give it its charm. That's my philosophy on the subject, anyway.

    I don't think I've complimented you properly, though—fantastic work! Really liking the subtle changes in arrangement between loops and such. :)
     
  6. dummeh

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    I definitely need to invest in Realstrat, or at least learn to use Shreddage properly. Realstrat sounds pretty decent and it's not too-expensive of an upgrade from RealGuitar by the looks of it. I'm normally working exclusively with Orchestra so my software and sample library collection is pretty much tailored for that :( You might know - I was scouting about to see if there was something similar to the Kontakt library - A kind of all-in-one sample palette (only better than Kontakt's).

    You can tell he was - the basslines are what made the Sonic songs. I think my problem is that I suck in general at mastering when it comes to anything not orchestral. I've just not had enough practice. Thanks a lot for the advice, definitely appreciated! I'm fiddling with it now to try and get the growl back but keep the punch.

    Totally agree that the 'fake' sound is what gives Sonic music it's charm. Makes it very hard to remix. It's actually nice to not have to worry about realism like I have to with orchestra. Hopefully with a few more tunes I can get the mixing down and get the hang of the Kontakt library.

    Thanks, glad you liked the bits I've posted so far and my orchestral stuff. I definitely appreciate all the feedback and advice I can get!

    Edit:
    Just checked out your YouTube stuff. Is that Realstrat in the Metropolis Zone act 2 piece? Really nice composing, man. If it is, I'm pretty much sold on getting it, aha.
     
  7. steveswede

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    Good to see you on here dummeh at last. I think a good few of us here have heard of you and your stuff and have quite a taste for it. I for one love your orchestral stuff, especially your orchestral versions of the boss music from the Sonic games.

    All I've got to say is.....


    What took you so long to sign up here. :)


    By the way nice submissions.
     
  8. Tweaker

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    <!--quoteo(post=487577:date=Aug 6 2010, 06:14 AM:name=dummeh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dummeh @ Aug 6 2010, 06:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=487577">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just checked out your YouTube stuff. Is that Realstrat in the Metropolis Zone act 2 piece? Really nice composing, man. If it is, I'm pretty much sold on getting it, aha.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually, no, I used Shreddage for that one! The left guitar uses Amplitube with the Power Stack 2 preset (plus some EQ tweaks) while the right channel uses a [reset in Guitar Rig (I forget which) with some overdrive applied to bring out the tone a bit more. Also, to drop some more names, the drums used Addictive Drums with Soundgoodizer in the mixer channel while the lead guitar is the Solo Guitar instrument from Kontakt run through Guitar Rig since I don't have anything better (if anyone has better suggestions for lead guitars, please let me know!). The bass I didn't do anything special with—just BooBass run through an amp with some EQ tweaks to bring out the low-end. Synths, as I recall, are a mixture of Zebra2 and an Absynth preset (Absynth annoys me to no end, for the record).

    RealStrat is definitely a good investment, in any case; Shreddage is nice, but it's not terribly efficient for anything other than rock. If you like RealGuitar's interface, you'll be pleased to learn that RealStrat's is virtually identical in pretty much every respect. I also hear there's a RealLPC as well, but I don't know enough about how different it is to bother getting it.

    You should definitely explore making some music outside of the realm of orchestral, though! It's nice to be well-rounded musically. Plus video game music and the like is always so fun to make! :D
     
  9. MaximusDM

    MaximusDM

    Sonic 2HD - Concept Artist Member
    Your orchestral versions of tracks are flat out amazing and I've always thought so. I'd personally love your orchestral renditions of all the tracks. But that is not my decision to make.
    But maybe it just comes down to personal taste, but I like the power/soul behind real/real-sounding instruments.

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1keA6lYmGd0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1keA6lYmGd0</a>
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    1:55 You just feel that bass line and sax. But then the guitar lead comes in and it in NO WAY can follow up on the performance of the sax. Which is why I really only like the intro.

    The other arrangements worth mentioning is their Wing Fortress Zone, and Boss Music. I'm not about to start criticizing the ones I don't like either; Trying to keep the post short.
    Maybe some songs shouldn't be orchestral by staff's standards. But my ears sure love them over the counterparts.
     
  10. dummeh

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    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DV42IxLT9Lc&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DV42IxLT9Lc&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    Not sure if I'm completely happy with it, but I've made this boss theme so many times now that I can't bring myself to remake it again.
    I also may have stolen the surprise ending idea from that medley video just posted.
     
  11. test-object

    test-object

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    Don't know about the trumpets. Is it me, or do they sound a bit too... fake?
    I'm not good in music though, so I might be wrong.
     
  12. Andeed

    Andeed

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    <!--quoteo(post=487482:date=Aug 6 2010, 02:04 AM:name=dummeh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dummeh @ Aug 6 2010, 02:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=487482">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey guys - I'm a long time fan of the project. There's some really nice work going on, music-wise.

    I know most of the zones are covered already, but would you guys have any use for these?

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DT-I2YcY-s&hd=1" target="_blank">Mystic Cave Zone Remix</a>
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82mJOcTcljc&hd=1" target="_blank">Hill Top Zone Remix</a>
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfF40vwH0Uo&hd=1" target="_blank">Oil Ocean Zone Remix</a>
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq8gDUIeOmc&hd=1" target="_blank">Chemical Plant Zone Remix</a>
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=Y1-RwjY_yeQ&hd=1" target="_blank">Aquatic Ruin Zone Remix</a>
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2aoyMVng0s&hd=1" target="_blank">Various bits Remix</a>

    MP3s are available. I also still have the project files for them all so I can make changes and such where required. I'm also looking at covering more zones once my current real-life-workload is gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    All of these are very well done.
    With Aquatic Ruin, try changing the main tune's instrument and have the pan centre to something a bit more dynamic and impacting. Also, the clap's are a little overpowering (or at least compared to the rest of the percussion).

    Your Emerald Hill Remix is superb too. I love the contrast with the gritty overdriven guitar and modern lead synth. I may be wrong but I believe the notes in the intro are a tone or so too low?
     
  13. dummeh

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    <!--quoteo(post=488001:date=Aug 7 2010, 04:36 AM:name=test-object)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (test-object @ Aug 7 2010, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=488001">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't know about the trumpets. Is it me, or do they sound a bit too... fake?
    I'm not good in music though, so I might be wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This was as intended - I think the instruments have to have a touch of synth/fakeness to them or it loses it's Sonic feel. Perhaps they're a touch too fake?

    <!--quoteo(post=488015:date=Aug 7 2010, 06:41 AM:name=Andeed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andeed @ Aug 7 2010, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=488015">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All of these are very well done.
    With Aquatic Ruin, try changing the main tune's instrument and have the pan centre to something a bit more dynamic and impacting. Also, the clap's are a little overpowering (or at least compared to the rest of the percussion).

    Your Emerald Hill Remix is superb too. I love the contrast with the gritty overdriven guitar and modern lead synth. I may be wrong but I believe the notes in the intro are a tone or so too low?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thanks, Andeed. I'd reduced the clap a little but on Aquatic Ruin Zone since posting the YouTube clip so hopefully that will have addressed your issues with it.
    With the Emerald Hill zone intro, I think there's too much emphasis on the harmony notes when compared to the original piece. I can fix that up quite easily.



    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gXiaO0qJJHQ&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gXiaO0qJJHQ&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    I was away for the weekend, but got this done this evening. Not completely happy with it, but oh well - I can master it better later once my ears have had some time away from it.
     
  14. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    <!--quoteo(post=488001:date=Aug 7 2010, 04:36 AM:name=test-object)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (test-object @ Aug 7 2010, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=488001">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't know about the trumpets. Is it me, or do they sound a bit too... fake?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I have to agree with this. All the brass used in the pieces so far just feels canned to me. The Robotnik theme is particularly grating. I have a preference for more accurate sounding instrumentation, however, so you can take that with a grain of salt. Tweaker has already responded, and I defer to his ears when it comes to musical analysis.
     
  15. dummeh

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    Being an orchestral composer, I usually produce much more realistic brass. This has been experimental so far, intentionally sounding a bit fake or dated. Perhaps I need to layer a little more synth on top of the brass to emphasize it's fakeness.

    I think the challenge is figuring out the balance between realism and retro.
     
  16. Andeed

    Andeed

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    Another great Remix dummeh!
    I tell you what I would love to see... A full on jazz recording of Casino Night, how it should be played with a real double bass, brush sticks, and jazzy horns :D
     
  17. Namo

    Namo

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    In reply to the two youtube vids posted:

    The Casino Night one is nearly perfect. I'd add some more instruments at that last segment before the song starts over, but otherwise, it's awesome.

    As for the Robotnik's main theme, I don't have any problem with the horns, but with the drums. They're too loud and I can barely hear the other instruments.
     
  18. BaXter

    BaXter

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    I'm agree with Namo, Casino Night show an idea of... hum... party, fiesta!! And your composition reflect this atmosphere, that's brilliant.

    A good remix for Eggman, but drums are to heavy. I prefer for the moment the scrubSteve style, but yours could be great later, I'm sure :thumbsup:
     
  19. dummeh

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    <!--quoteo(post=489276:date=Aug 10 2010, 07:06 AM:name=Namo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namo @ Aug 10 2010, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=489276">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Casino Night one is nearly perfect. I'd add some more instruments at that last segment before the song starts over, but otherwise, it's awesome.

    As for the Robotnik's main theme, I don't have any problem with the horns, but with the drums. They're too loud and I can barely hear the other instruments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thanks, glad you liked. I need to play with the levels on the Robotnik theme piece. The drums need calming down a bit and the bass needs bringing up a tad, I think. I'm gonna give all these pieces the once over when I have everything complete.

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UAuYB_9hZA8&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UAuYB_9hZA8&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    Special stage rough-done this morning.
     
  20. Namo

    Namo

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    I've no complaints with the Special Stage music. It captures the feel of the original to a T, and I especially like the special spin you put on towards the end.
     
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