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Music Remastered

Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by Athelstone, Apr 24, 2008.

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  1. steveswede

    steveswede

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    @Blueblur87

    Hill Top sounds in tune now but I thought you were going to record a real Harmonica instead of using a soundfont for it to sound more realistic. The soundfonts you are using for the rest of the track, including the boss theme sound very MIDI unfortunately. I would recommend looking for some romplers that do legato, portamento, round robin to give that real sound. For an organ, a good FM synth can do the job. As for a Banjo, you could use Chris Heins Guitars.

    You will be spending some time learning how to use these but I think you will get the sound your looking for if you do decide to get something like these.
     
  2. Thanks for the feedback steveswede, you seem to be the only person replying recently!

    Don't worry about Hill Top, that soundfont's a placeholder for when I get good enough (I'm having trouble on a couple of notes, where I have to do 2 different pitch bends on the 3rd hole).

    I realise having a proper VSTi would be an improvement, but I am proud of my arrangement for the Boss Theme, perhaps some velocity adjustments are needed, and I can probably drag and drop in VSTi's onto the midi if I get one. I'm not sure legato is necessary, as that would blend the notes together wouldn't it? I guess you're just saying I need a better quality instrument...? Chris Heins guitars look good. However, I think considering I didn't spend any money so far, it's not bad though wouldn't you say?

    Thanks for replying!
     
  3. RedStripedShoes

    RedStripedShoes

    And I'm gone again. Member
    Why don't you just record the harmonica in segments, then put them together? And for the parts you're having trouble with, play them really slowly, then speed them up.
     
  4. Well, I had a go.. then got bored so here's what I did. I know it's not great which is why I stopped. Basically I need to practise. Here's the spliced track:
    http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/7/18/251...ltop%20Flat.mp3
    There's a lot of clicks on each clip, I tried crossfading but it did not get rid of them :(

    Here is a recording of me practising, and making lots of mistakes:
    http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/7/18/251...%20practise.mp3

    In time, I'll get it, just not quite there yet.
     
  5. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    Blueblur, if you're really serious about turning the boss theme into a contribution to the project instead of just a fun personal piece, you have to use better samples. The current ones are extremely MIDI sounding.
     
  6. Show me a Boss Theme contribution that isn't.
     
  7. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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  8. Haha, you think mine sounds more midi than them? These are very old, and I've already heard them, they sound very artificial. FYI my instrument SFs are all made from real instrument samples. All be it free ones (care to donate $500 for some good ones?). Can you please elaborate how these sound like real instruments and explain how mine are, quote "extremely midi sounding"? I want to see which characteristic of the sound you are referring to. Also, It's not "back to the drawing board" because if it's just the sound fonts, all I have to do is plug in better VST's into what I've already made, and perhaps make slight humanization changes. It's not like I have to start all over. Don't take this the wrong way, I want it to sound good. In my opinion, for songs using midi, they inevitably will sound midi, there's only a few that don't, for example - Mesomium's Oil Ocean and Ransom Rath's Metropolis Zone, all others sound midi-like to me, and as you have praised some of them (some of them really awfully midi sounding) I thought that was what you liked. Now all of a sudden as soon as I start using FL Studio, I get these new criticisms that I've never had before, all saying my instruments are midi sounding, what a hypocrisy!
     
  9. Well, those two boss themes have more realistic percussion than yours, and they also have instruments that change their volume which makes it sound very dynamic and not-MIDI. But hey, that's not to say that yours can't be improved! I like to get my soundfonts from this guy:

    http://soundfonts.darkesword.com/

    Because they all seem to be very high quality. Keep working at it. :)
     
  10. That (changing volume) is a fair argument, in my Hill Top Zone, I did change the velocities for every note, but for Boss Theme I didn't. However, they both sound MIDI apparently. The drums are from a very realistic sampled kit so perhaps it's the lack of dynamics and changes to the sounds. Also I could not find timpani percussion sounds where I looked. It's very easy for everyone to criticise quickly whilst taking any positives for granted. I still want Canned Karma to answer though, as his statement was quite harsh and without any explanation or reasoning given. I made all of my music from scratch, including the midi file, whereas other people are borrowing midis from websites, which I think is very naughty indeed.
     
  11. I really liked your Hilltop Zones btw, thought it was cool how you were doing the Harmonica yourself too, even if it fell short of the actual notes at times.
     
  12. Thanks man, that has cheered me up a bit. I am a complete novice at the harmonica and at FL Studio, so any encouragement at this point is much appreciated. A lot of people are obviously more experienced, but I still want to contribute even if it means I need to learn. So yeah, saying "it sounds really MIDI, back to the drawing board" is different to giving encouragement and advice, like you have done by pointing out what specifically I can do to improve.
     
  13. Thundertimi

    Thundertimi

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  14. Yeah, that's been posted before, but it is really impressive. Actually, on the Youtube page you can see that Tweaker has commented, so.. :P
     
  15. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    Blueblur, if my statement seemed harsh, it was due to your own implying that everything that had been submitted before sounded subpar for the Boss Theme. Scuba's sounds great, so I fail to see where your criticism of his work is valid. The same can be said for its age. It was also -not- on the database before I put it up there last night. I assumed it had, which was my mistake, but it is by no means an old submission. He recently created that and showed it to the staff in a meeting. Consider it under that light, if you will.

    I do believe your boss theme is extremely MIDI sounding. The horns and drums lack character to my ears. To elaborate on that, they sound unrealistic. I've heard basic piano trumpet synths that sounded very similar to what you used. You said you made yours from scratch, and while I can acknowledge the effort done on behalf of that, have you considered that it could be the problem? There's a ton of fantastic samples out there. Please don't prejudice yourself to them simply because you weren't responsible for their creation. Compare what you used with the horn samples scubaSteve and Cinossu used, and tell me yours on the same level, let alone superior. You yourself stated you had only put a couple hours into the piece. They put far more work into theirs, and it shows for it. Here's some more specific advice for you. Play around with the attack on your horn samples to give them more punch. Add in a subtle background jingle or chime or your choice to throw in more flavor. As it is the piece is just a basic remaster of the boss theme. You mentioned the Oil Ocean and Metropolis pieces for reference. That's great; the things that were added to them are what makes them amazing.

    It really doesn't matter to me what program you want to use to create music. I'm not going to bash any product, but I definitely will comment on the end product. Don't view this as a personal attack. I know you're a talented contributer, and I want to see what you've made so far be improved upon. This taken into account with my reasoning regarding your samples combined to form my 'back to the drawing board' comment.
     
  16. HeartAttack

    HeartAttack

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    I think the drums and bass in BlueBlur's rendition of the boss theme sound amazing. The synth-brass-trumpet (or whatever) sound is too soft for me, I think it should be sharper, more direct. But the drums and bass are really, really good in my opinion.
     
  17. Kirinja

    Kirinja

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    You need to work more with the mixer. If you mix your sounds differently then it will pack a different punch. scubaSteves rendition has this close feeling to it. Fool around with the EQ and some other mixing options and it will sound a lot better. Now I am no expert but your sounds kinda flat, add some difference in the velocity, so it doesn't sound so mechanic. Some parts sounds kinda messy as well, a lot of instrument are mixing and you cant quite pick up anything. The beginning is a pretty good example. There is a flute(?) in the intro that is way to loud.
    Work with the mixer and you'll get much better results. Not that these are bad, they are just a bit bland.
     
  18. @ Canned Karma
    Thanks, that is a lot better than your previous comment, and will provide me with a much clearer understanding on what to do. I was admittedly being harsh towards the other submissions, which are more professional, but I still think a lot of the tracks submitted which you have complimented sound more MIDI-like than my Boss track. I can assure you the samples I used in this track are all made from real instruments, and I don't know how they can be compared to a thin and electronic sounding keyboard sample. I agree there isn't much variation or attack on the notes, and this is the limitation of the samples unfortunately.. I tried moving the notes forward on some instruments and adjusting the envelope but it didn't change much.

    @ HeartAttack
    I agree, I thought the drums were good too... I used the EQ to boost the bass and high end... I wanted timpani drums like what an orchestra or marching band would use, but didn't have any so I used the tom toms of the evandro drum kit. It's a really great drum kit sound font, I used it on Hill Top also. The bass could be louder perhaps, but it's an acoustic bass soundfont.. so I think it has the right character.

    @ Kirinja
    Thanks for the specific feedback. I did use the EQ, but perhaps I need to use it on a per-instrument basis rather than master EQ. The mixing problem is something I am aware of, specifically with the sax I used, and I think I will change that instrument. I am also thinking I need to change where the instruments are in the stereo space, to make it feel like you are surrounded by the music.

    This is all good stuff guys, I think I have enough feedback now to make a significant improvement. I would like to get this sort of feedback in future, and for other tracks I have done as it's much more constructive.
     
  19. scubaSteve

    scubaSteve

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    Alright everyone, being an esteemed staff member (*cough*), I feel I must apologize for being absent as of late (how many months has it been since I last posted? >_>), and I also feel I must thank everyone who has continued offering constructive criticisms and critiques and has kept this thread very much alive and kicking. So now, to vastly overcompensate for my absence, here is a really big damn post:

    I think what needs to be said is that just because your samples are good, it doesn't automatically make your song sound unlike MIDI. By far the biggest problem with the Boss Theme you posted is that there is absolutely no variation in the velocity of notes - you MUST use note velocities! And while I know it feels awesome to hammer out a composition in such a short amount of time, you might want to refrain from posting it until you've put some more polish into it - just think about that ever-important -first impression-.

    OK, since the "It sounds like MIDI!" problem seems to be popping up again, here comes another wall of advice - I'm probably repeating a bunch of stuff I've said before, but that's OK :)

    - First off, if your sampler patches don't have velocity mapped to note volume, you'll need to do this yourself. (As far as I know, any sampler in existence can do this - it's a very basic feature) As I said, you MUST use note velocities! This is always the best first step towards creating a more natural sound. Really take some time to imagine how each part should be expressed, how they should flow into each other, etc., and adjust your note velocities accordingly.
    - Also, if your patches do not have multiple velocity layers - I.e., different samples for different ranges of velocities - you should consider on instruments with large ranges of timbres, such as brass, mapping velocity to a filter which will open up as velocity increases. Generally you'll want no greater than a 12dB/oct lowpass, as anything higher usually sounds unnatural. If your sampler can't do this (though most should), you'll unfortunately have to automate the filter by hand if you want the effect.
    - Regarding the attack lengths, if your sampler is capable of changing the sample start time, this should your first choice for adding variation to attack times. For many instruments and applications, mapping the sample start along with volume to note velocity will do the job just fine; however, if you're looking for more control - ex. if you need a softer note with a short attack - you'll need to map the sample start to an external control (mod wheel, expression, aftertouch, etc.) and automate that.
    - If the attack lengths seem fine but the strong notes just don't have enough punch, this is where a compressor becomes useful. Set it up with a short attack time (10-100 ms) and a long release (>200 ms) so that the attack of each note comes through before the compressor squashes the rest of the note down. You might also want to adjust the threshold so that only the louder notes are compressed.
    - Lastly, on parts with a strong rhythmic presence (so definitely drums), it often helps to very slightly randomize the positions of the notes. This is especially important on instruments where you might have multiple notes triggering simultaneously - the toms on a drum kit are a particularly good example. Every DAW that I've used has a randomization function for this purpose, so I'd assume that most others have it as well.

    I think that we also need to clarify just what it is we mean when we say "It sounds too MIDI!", as there seems to have been some confusion over this lately. Being the bunch that we are, I'm sure we're all well aware that even the oldest MIDI compositions can sound great today - it really comes down to the quality of the composition itself (Rob Hubbard, anyone?). However, I believe it was the initial attempts at using sampled instruments - especially in games - that gave MIDI a bad name, and is often what we're thinking of when we use the term informally. So I think, in a nutshell, what this usage of "MIDI" has mutated to mean today is simply "unnatural". Therefore, when we say something "sounds MIDI", it doesn't necessarily have to do with the quality of the samples - it's how you use them!

    Your instincts are spot on :)

    More general advice:
    Generally you should EQ instruments individually as you add them, and shouldn't do a full-mix EQ until you're close to being done. Furthermore, as a rule of thumb, on your final EQ you should never need to apply more than 2 or 3 dBs anywhere - any more and it's likely that you have a single instrument (or two) that's causing problems.
     
  20. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    Everything scuba just posted is essential information. I've added most of his post to the OP, sans specific references to the current piece being discussed.
     
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