"Multiple" new Sonic games planned for 2021

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by The Joebro64, Sep 7, 2020.

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  1. Some of you need a little imagination, that's about all Id say haha. No offense really but the criticisms of utopia I continue to see are all about it being an incomplete fangame and to me that's completely irrelevant.

    "But but but you don't know exactly what it would look like!"

    Come on guys.

    Forget about the actual utopia and just imagine some big studio had free reign with that concept, in an all new title. To me, it is fairly obvious that sonic could do a style like that well with some smart developers, other games already exist which take advantage of these kind of principles just in a different way.

    To me it's a natural translation but the reason it hasn't happened is because Sonic Team over the years has focused too much on trying to directly translate the 2D "point a to b" style into a 3D space, rather than recontextualize Sonic's gameplay in 3D while bringing along the core appeal of what made the MD games successful and memorable...which I would say, is about freedom of movement and mastery of momentum physics and Sonic's environment.

    This is the last I'll post about this, because it's really a "I'll believe it when I see it situation" in terms of it ever happening and thus pointless to debate.
     
  2. You know what, I'm gonna just come out and say it, I'm an old and crusty Boomer now.

    I'm long past the point of clinging to my ideal Sonic game, because unless I'm part of the development team, its never going to be made, and even if it was, there's no guarantee that it would actually be good.


    So I'm basically at the point of "just give me something that has a sense of direction, control, and scope" and I'll be Gucchi.


    Do I probably lack imagination? Absolutely, but I don't care at this point. I'm so past the point of getting my expectations high for this series, just give me something to sink my teeth into and I'll go home satisfied.
     
  3. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I think if people cling onto those "ideals and buzzwords" it's because they feel they're worth pursuing, not because they're jumping on bandwagons. People wouldn't go as far as to make fangames and game engines based on those sensibilities if they didn't genuinely want to see such games become a reality.
     
  4. Wildcat

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    I’ve read the past few pages but I really don’t lean one way or the other. I honestly never took a lot of alternate paths in the old games unless they led to secrets. I’m thinking a lot of people probably took the typical path most of the time. I could be wrong.

    I really don’t know how you’d translate multiple paths in 3D without also being able to cheat the environment. In GT and RB2 enemies are a total non-factor even if it’s fun to zip around.

    Wide open worlds work in other games because the characters don’t have the super power to zoom and fly across everything. Maybe if you tone down Sonic’s capability and condense the land a little? I don’t know. A wide open world just might not work for a Sonic game or should be hub-worlds.

    I wanted to bring up the supposed compilation. The promo art suggests it’s true but also pretty easy to figure given it’s an anniversary.

    The leak mentioned Sonic R. If it’s true I hope the Saturn/PC version of Sonic 3D Blast is included with some extras like unused features, HD, etc. the usual bonuses. Of course SegaSonic and Chaotix too. Which I know I’ve said before.

    Those all fit the criteria of the leak. Plus they’re are all from the same era. What would it be called? Probably not Gems again. Diamond Collection?
     
  5. MH MD

    MH MD

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    And that's exactly what they did, people focus so much about how Forces was bad etc, that they forget it was a $40 release at launch, they knew it did not warrant $60, and that it was short game, and they treated it as such, which is a good move, they already scaled back in a sense, same can be said for Team Sonic Racing and how it also launched with $40 Price tag.
    SEGA already accepted that Sonic games shouldn't really be treated as AAA games anymore, it seems the fanbase disagree though.
    Should the next game be good and follow the same model, it would success even more.
     
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  6. Laura

    Laura

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    I think a lot of the complaints about Utopia are testament to how 2D Sonic isn't well suited to 3D (shock horror!). I agree that you spend too much time jumping through the air, but that was a major feature of the Classics. You'd go jumping off some ramp, fly across the stage, bounce off enemies or boxes etc. But it works in the Classics because there are walls to stop you going overboard and bouncing off monitors and enemies took skill. In Utopia you just homing attack chain to victory. It's fun, I won't lie, but it's also shallow.

    A seeming fetish of these 3D fangames is making you run through loops manually with the camera going upside down. This is the perfect embodiment of how these projects fail because they try to literally translate 2D Sonic to 3D. Can we please just stop doing this? It controls horribly and gives you a headache. The camera in the Classics don't do a 360 degrees turn when you are running through the loop because it's static 2D. Just make loops automated and accept that they have to work as a setpiece in 3D.

    The reason why Adventure and Boost are fun is precisely because they do not try to literally translate 2D Sonic to 3D.
     
  7. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    Nah, let's not. I actually love the non-automatic 3d loops with the rotating camera, they're far more fun and satisfying that auto loops. No headaches or control issues here. Sure, they may take a little while to master, but the same is true for loops in 2d.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
  8. Sonic needs a severe speed nerf imo. For those who like the blistering speeds of unleashed and gens, the boost can be an extra move for sonic, but I really think Sonic has gotten too fast for his own good. They tried to fix this in forces, but instead of capping his speed a bit they just nerfed the controls and automated everything in an attempt to simplify it.

    How can we keep people from cheesing open 3d environments? I won't say the adventure games are the living answer to this, but they're a pretty good start- then after taking some pages from there, work in a speed gimmick like advance 2, rush, or gens.

    I really really do think stages need condensing down. People aren't complaining that utopia's level design was bad per se, I get the vibe that people feel it was way, way too big. You could literally run through one loop (that was 30x bigger than any classic loop no less) and have enough speed to scale half the f***ing stage lol. Utopia was big. Too big. And I think it's perfectly fair to give it criticism before it's finished. After all, don't we already do that with the official sonic games? Are we (the holy fans) exempt from failure, mistakes or criticism?

    I've been told my 3d stages are really well designed, and I've got a pretty good headspace for what I would make a 3d sonic game be like, but I'm not gonna give you guys that whole spiel lol. As for this...

    Sonic 4 episode 1 on mobile did. And that was no good.
     
  9. DigitalDuck

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    Loops don't make sense in 3D full stop - you can just jump through them. If you don't want automation, you might have to accept the loss of loops.
     
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  10. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    Loops were a setpiece in 2D Sonic too. Sonic games have always had flashy moments with little input from the player. People love to rebuke this by saying that jumping at the right moment you can gain a little momentum from them, but is that really such an important thing that the devs totally intended and therefore needs to be preserved? I don't think so. This is why I generally argue against the idea of a Sonic game having no automation whatsoever, it makes the big assumption that for anything to be scripted in a Sonic game is a knock against it. Flair is not an inherent flaw, it can be a great spice to the game, it's only in excess that it's a problem. So if loops only work in 3D when they're automated, then what you're asking for is not to remove the scripting from them, but to create some new gimmick that uses Sonic's momentum properly in 3D.
     
  11. Vaiz

    Vaiz

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    I don't know where I stand on the subject of loops. They don't really work as well in 3D as they do in 2D and I don't think there is a way to make them translate perfectly. If in a 3D open environment, which seems to be what a lot of people want, you can just ignore them and they become optional just for the sake of being there. If they're in a linear path, then they make more sense as an obstacle that you need to be able to build enough speed up to bypass but, again, if they're not automated, with enough maneuvering skill you can just jump through them.
    Maybe we should accept that we expect loops to be there purely because it's part of what we recognize as Sonic's aesthetic, but maybe they don't actually have a practical place in a 3D environment, unlike a 2D map where your traversal options are much more constrained.

    Edit: I'd say slopes and ramps are a much better use of Sonic's physics in 3D than loops. Think of it like the Tony Hawk games, where you have a large open map to explore, but you can only find the really cool areas by building up enough speed and momentum to use ramps to get to higher areas. I'd like to see more of that.
     
  12. Blue Spikeball

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    You'd still need to run on the loops to grab the rings within them. Also, games like GT use loops to allow the player to build up speed with properly timed rolls, and Spark 2 has mid-air loops where it's safer and easier to run on them than jumping through them.

    Tell that to a new Sonic player who has trouble crossing loops. They weren't just decoration, they required enough momentum.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
  13. Vaiz

    Vaiz

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    You make a fair point, loops could be used in conjunction with other elements that require greater speed to take advantage of (see: my comment about ramps and slopes) as a tool for traversal.
     
  14. Shaddy the guy

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    Most times in the 3D games they require you to hold forward, so I guess those are technically an obstacle too.
     
  15. Hanging Waters

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    Great to see all the criticisms and praises of Utopia and all, but let's remember it's... a tech demo. I guess you could say the "level design" still has problems, but they have said the Green Hill demo is hardly even a "level" they "designed", and moreso just a big playground to screw around with. This doesn't affect the new game discussion in any way, but just remember the true vision for the project hasn't even shown its head yet and the demo definitely isn't representative of that vision. And now that I think about it, maybe someone already said this but I'm just trying to skim everything.

    Also, on the subject of loops, I always saw them more as a source of spectacle. I guess they do require you to build up some speed to get through them, but it was always like woah sonic is running upside down holy shit mom come look at this. In a lot of sections you're moving through a speed section or you're in a position where you've already got more than enough momentum to get through the loops in your path, like most of Chemical Plant for example. It's only in levels like GHZ (Sonic 1) where I felt like the loop was an obstacle.

    The way I interact with loops nowadays is by trying to jump right at the very end of them to gain that big speed boost, lol. I keep trying to do this on consecutive loops, even if I usually mess up and actually lose speed for it.


    Also: Idk how many times 200 different people need to say this, but elitisim is annoying and unnecessary. "Real sonic fans", "haven't played the game enough", "you don't know what makes sonic good", like let's all chill out here. The last few pages seem to have gone buckwild so I'm just adding my 2 cents in there. Anyone who loves Sonic games is a real Sonic fan. Anyone who has played the franchise's games and decided they like them enough to play them again, has played them enough. Anyone who likes Sonic and has a reason why, they know what makes Sonic good. Everyone is awesome, end of story.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
  16. Vaiz

    Vaiz

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    Welcome to the Sonic community, we've been buttfuck insane for 20 years :v Lmao
     
  17. I mean, I enjoy literally everything the blue blue puts out, so I'm kinda scared as to what that makes me lol...

    On a serious note: yeah. Elitism can suffer in hell. We're just trying to have a good time watching a blue guy go fast. Coming in here and telling everyone that how they choose to enjoy said activity is somehow wrong or "not true to the franchise's roots" is in really bad taste. Sonic is a series for kids, whether you like it or not. And what part of Sonic each of us was experiencing when we were kids is irrelevant; we were all just kids, watching a blue guy go fast, and we liked it. What's at the "roots" of the franchise is completely different for each person and that's okay, cause we're just here to have fun. This isn't a dadgum debate people, learn to smile and laugh with the people you share the planet with for once.
     
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  18. Hanging Waters

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    The one thing I will say is, if you don't like Chao then you are not a real fan.

    Of what? I'm not certain.
    But you are a fake fan, and a bad person as well. There is a special circle in hell designated just for people like you, where Chao haters go to suffer in their ignorance. There is definitely not an ounce of sarcasm in this message. :V
     
  19. kyasarintsu

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    The classics didn't tend to have speed pads in front of loops. The game engine didn't instantaneously grant Sonic a ton of speed and direction to run through them. There wasn't a non-committal boost button to get Sonic instantly going at top speed to clear them whenever you felt like it.
    Loops back then could very much function as a speed check: if you're going through the level smoothly, loops reward you with both minor spectacle and speed. Loops may have been a setpiece but they had a good place in the level design. Because they weren't gigantic for camera purposes like they were in the 3D games, they were much easier to squeeze into levels without taking away from the rest of the environment, too.
    Loops in 2D and 3D are only the same if you look at them totally superficially.
     
  20. Laura

    Laura

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    Elitism in Sonic has always been a pretty dumb thing. Let's not fool ourselves, it's a game series aimed at young children. We probably got into the series ourselves when we were children. There's nothing wrong with loving children's entertainment as an adult, but it is pretty pathetic when people get really uptight about gatekeeping what is really Sonic and what isn't. I've met people 10 years younger than me who think that the real Sonic is Sonic Heroes. That's their fond memory of Sonic, playing Sonic Heroes on PS2.

    Now I think that Sonic Heroes is very middling but I'm not going to get furious and start calling them a fake fan because they think that's what constitutes Sonic. God imagine if you did that in real life :V
     
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