"Multiple" new Sonic games planned for 2021

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by The Joebro64, Sep 7, 2020.

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  1. Funny thing is, that's how it used to be.

    Back in the day, the mainline 3d games were full of open worlds for platforming around in, while the high speed, acrade-y boosting games were reserved as handheld spinoffs.
     
  2. nesboy43

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    Based on the photos I agree that Generations 2 with 3 Sonics is the upcoming title (or at least one of them).

    It could also potentially be a port of Generations with the inclusion of Adventure Sonic and maybe a few additional levels.
     
  3. I truly wish people would stop using this argument as a reason the adventure formula is better than the boost formula.
    Yuki Naka himself commented more than once that Sonic's gameplay in the adventure games took up an enormous amount of resources and that was the entire reason the gimmicky alternative gameplay styles were created in the first place. Do people really not know that by now? The level maps for sonic levels have to be enormous and Sonic's 3D gameplay is still based on the 2D games in 'head to the goal, beat the boss'. And to pad the game you get lots of other worthless filler, which is why the sonic's shitty friends meme ever started. And it's why Sonic fell out with critics to begin with in the early 2000s. I remember reading an old magazine not too long ago actually and the main comment was "SEGA keeps trying to force Sonic into being a AAA game when they should just accept that it's a 3 hour experience" . This is just history folks, try and read about it.

    The real problem with this franchise is expectations. SEGA has wanted Sonic to still be a full price game, but as mentioned there just isn't enough content in the game and we all have suffered the entire 3D era for it.

    The only solution, is to either accept that the Sonic formula in 3D (which is the 2D style with a 3D space molded around it) is a niche game that shouldn't be offered at full price.....

    .....OR actually develop a full scale 3D sonic game with truly 3D gameplay that takes full advantage of the third dimension in ways the classics couldn't, with enough content to warrant the $60 tag price. And the only concept I have EVER seen that actually warrants that is the Sonic utopia concept, because it's based on dicking around with exploration and physics in a huge 3D space much like a mario 64 or a spiderman. But I doubt that'll get made because it's just too obvious a success lol.
     
  4. Overlord

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    Utopia has always felt like an empty tech demo, though, this is the problem.

    And yes, yes "potential" - I'm not sure it necessarily has it.
     
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  5. The Joebro64

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    Utopia would get torn to shreds if it was released as an official product, IMO.
     
  6. Starduster

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    Thing is, and I have the utmost respect for what Utopia’s demo is and the people who work on it, is that if they games went for what we saw in that demo, it would be way more resource intensive than even the boost games. Sure, you may get more out of them, but the amount of man hours it’d take to make a full scale game with that philosophy *and* filling out the levels with more enemy encounters and gimmicks would be preposterous.

    Sure, you’d get far more gameplay out of it, but it just seems like an impractical amount of work to me. Look at Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild for two comparable titles. Not only are both characters slower than Sonic, Odyssey’s sandboxes are either comparatively small and densely packed or have a lot of focus on travel time, the latter being a trait BotW shares. And that travel time isn’t necessarily empty, but in a Sonic game it would be obligated to involve a lot more terrain set pieces.
     
  7. Azookara

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    Utopia is like if the Adventure games didn't have a sense of restraint. Or level direction. It's got better collision/physics, sure, but its about as far away from it's intent compared to SA1/2 as it is closer.

    Everyone craving extreme freedom plus boost-tier speed has led to fangames where maps are too long and aimless for my taste. Not to say some room to breathe and make more choices isn't appreciated, but the amount of fangames like that lately has made me appreciate more compact, focused level design.
     
  8. Frostav

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    Utopia is a demo. The actual game is not complete. Y'all have been doing this for like four years and sorry, it's getting tiring. Wait till the actual game is done before you do this.

    but news flash: there's a reason why the whole gaming community turned their eye to the demo when it released.

    Also second newsflash: Lange already said that the actual levels were going to be nowhere near as expansive as the demo. it's amazing people still pull the "but it's too biiiiiiiig" canard when the actual game is not going to be like the demo. Like damn man you can go onto the thread for the demo on this very site and see him say that.

    Uh, you got things MAD confused here. The whole "the levels take so much time to make so we have to pad the game out" started with Unleashed and the boost gameplay style. The reason SA1 had so many characters was due to a variety of factors:

    -SA1 was a flagship launch title for SEGA newest console and they wanted a big game to flex the Dreamcast's power
    -Sonic Team during testing discovered that Tails' flight ability broke levels and exploring with Knuckles' climbing was interesting; hence why Tails races Sonic and Knux looks for emeralds. I have my misgivings with how they did things--they could have discovered ways to creatively design levels so Tails wouldn't break them and Emerald hunting could have been made a lot better or just replaced with A-to-B levels, but there do ya go
    -Back then games having tons of characters was a big selling point. DK64 boasted having like five, people were posting a million rumors about unlocking Luigi in SM64, etc, so Sonic Team and SEGA decided to stuff SA1 with SIX PLAYABLE CHARACTERS to brag about on the box
    -Big exists to flex the Dreamcast's water effects and promote their fishing game

    Yeah, now we look back on it and think that this approach was a mistake, but it was understandable.

    Also to be frank the idea that 3D Sonic was obsessed with alternate gameplay styles honestly only applies to the Adventure games (and SA2 cut them in half). Starting with Heroes the games became almost purely A-to-B platforming levels. 06, Unleashed, Colors, Lost World, Generations, and Forces are all just standard 3D platformers design-wise. Shadow was a quasi-spin-off so I'm not bringing it into this conversation.

    newsflash bro: if people keep making these things, maybe it's because they see an appeal to them and like them
     
  9. Laura

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    Utopia is the only 3D fangame which I think has genuine potential. The level design isn't there yet but I can totally see how you could make entertaining levels out of it. I don't feel the same way about Sonic GT and the others (sorry!).

    I think Sonic Infinity and Hero Project are good, but they are mostly just a re-interpretation of Boost.
     
  10. Azookara

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    Note I said to my taste. You can quit your sass, man.
     
  11. Dek Rollins

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    I think people are forgetting that the Utopia demo was not intended to be a complete game experience. It was an experiment.

    Project Hero looks like it'll be a more refined product. Though we haven't really seen anything from Utopia since the demo, so I have no idea how the concept has evolved since then.

    EDIT: just in case anyone doesn't know, Project Hero doesn't look anything like the old demo anymore. Check Hero's Twitter and he retweeted a post with more recent clips.
     
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  12. Blue Blood

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    I mostly can't keep up with thread, but seeing as we've been talking about games like Utopia, Project Hero, Spark 2 and various other 3D Sonic (or Sonic style) fan games that incorporate a heavy emphasis on speed through slopes and relative freedom... None of these games feel like the the Classic/original Sonic formula translated into 3D. They all seem to involve a tiny Sonic in an enormous world. The scale is ridiculously off, so anytime that you're not running at top-speed movement is a chore because there's so much ground to cover. But you have to keep moving at high speed or else you'll not have any hope of making even the most basic of jumps, because everything is so spaced apart for the floaty "momentum" physics. You seem to spend ages flying through the air trying to decide where Sonic is going to land. The amount of time you seem to spend on free-fall in these games is crazy boggling.

    I dunno... These games aren't all bad. Many of them are really impressive in their own right, but they lack any sort of focus. Either you manipulate the physics to go fast and end up with something where tight platforming and navigation is impossible, or you have the absolute worst time walking around environments that are too big to function.

    Just putting it out there. When it comes making Sonic work in 3D in a manner close to the classic games, the Adventures are the best examples we've seen. SA1 in particular. The various tech demos that fans have made all seem to lack cohesion and focus on their core mechanics to flesh out a full game. The whole "huge world with a tiny character flying through the air and occasionally landing to just run fast through corridors" is why I've not yet purchased Spark 2 and why I'm so over all the various demos and proof-of-concept releases like Utopia. Utopia is a fun little sandbox, but I don't see it coming together into something with much structure.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
  13. Starduster

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    Regarding Adventure being resource intensive, I’m sure that’s certainly true for the time it was made, but the games industry has come a long way since then. New technology has greatly expanded the scope of what games can be, so creating a game like Adventure today would likely be far less resource intensive.

    Even if that isn’t the case, I see Adventure as being more resource *effective* than the boost games, and this is just considering Sonic’s levels (and Shadow’s in SA2). Boost levels require copious amounts of modelling just for backgrounds and scenery that flies by the screen in seconds. On a geometry standpoint, I reckon you’d get at least two Adventure levels out of a boost level, though admittedly this suggestion should be taken very lightly as I make it based on nought but what I see during gameplay.

    Looking at Sonic Forces’ wiki page, I count 11 levels for Modern Sonic, including the duo levels and excluding Red Gate Bridge for basically being a boss level. I reckon an Adventure styled game made today, comprised solely of Sonic levels, could comfortably pack 25 main levels, as many as Crash Bandicoot 2 and 3 had, for reference.
     

  14. No mate, there was an interview with Yuji Naka (Gotta remember where from) where he confirmed that the primary reason they inserted alternate characters was because Sonic Adventure would be too short for the amount of resources it took, so to make use of all of those resources, they used the alternate playstyles to compensate, and that's been used in literally every 3D game.

    As mentioned, Sega using these gimmicks and half measures is a justification for the full price tag, because they're trying to make Sonic a AAA title that people expect him to be, despite the fact that Sonic is built on replayability and not all of these assets.

    I very much agree that they should just bite the bullet and accept that Sonic games are gonna appeal to a niche set of people, and doesn't warrant a $60 price tag. Mania is the least likely thing from a AAA game, and that game did amazing critically, I think its time we scaled down the 3D games to something short and manageable.
     
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  15. The Joebro64

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    Aside from this small bit, I agree wholeheartedly with this post.
     
  16. Gestalt

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    If it was that easy to put Sonic in a sandbox, then Sega would have already done it themselves. My biggest issue with Utopia was the camera. It made my head dizzy (not sure if that's the games fault though lol). I believe it could have worked better if the areas were cut into smaller sections with lots of verticality, well-composed camera angles and so on and so forth. But I'd still say that it's amazing that someone made something playable out of it. Same goes for all the other fan games out there.
     
  17. Blue Blood

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    Just to clarify then; I'm not saying that SA1 = Classic Sonic in 3D. It's absolutely not. SA1's levels are linear and lack vertically, there's a a lot less precision platforming, physics don't work like they do in the classics and automation takes precedence a lot of the time , speed used very differently etc etc... The list goes on. But Sonic's gameplay and general movement in SA1 closer to the original 2D games than the 3D tech demo fan games. It feels like more of a logical 3D evolution of the classic games than Rolling Ball Simulator.
     
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  18. Gestalt

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    Yeah, SA1 but in 2D - still a better game than Sonic 4.
     
  19. Azookara

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    To add to this, I don't think Sonic needs to be 1:1 the same in 3D as he is in 2D either, as long as many general rules seem to be shared. Mario 3D World, even as close as it is to a 2D Mario game, plays by a different rulebook in many ways due to adapting to a third dimension, and yet I still would call them the same ball-park. Sonic Adventure is kind of an equivalent to that, if you discount the automated bits as products of it's time.

    Hell, I even kinda see the boost gameplay as a Mario 64 tier 'reinvention' of the character for 3D games, which is why I think both it and Adventure are valid.

    Either way, the ancient crusade for "1:1 classic gameplay in 3D" isn't really all I think it's been cracked up to be. It can make for a fun game (recent versions of SRB2 comes to mind), but it's not necessary. As long as Sonic collects/drops rings, has a jump attack that bounces on enemies at all angles, builds up speed down hills (bonus points if it's in a ball) and falls down if you're too slow, you've kinda got all you need. Just make it fun to control and you're gold.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  20. Blue Blood

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    Yes yes yes, so much this!

    Sonic's gameplay has got some core tenants that need to upheld as you mentioned, but a perfect parity between 3D and 2D is no more ideal than it is even feasible. And these identifying tenants have appeared in virtually every Sonic game 2D or 3D, with twists and reinterpretations as necessary. Some games have worked out better than others for sure, but they've all been Sonicy at the end of the day.
     
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