"Multiple" new Sonic games planned for 2021

I'm almost certain most people recognize the success of Mania for what it is, and Sega dropping it would be the stupidest decision ever. Because unlike most of the modern games, Mania WAS loved, universally so. You'd have to literally be in denial to not see how well received Mania was.

What many decry "Classic Sonic" for is the shallow ass marketing and leaning on the image in games like Forces where his gameplay is watered down and its plain as day that he was shoehorned into the game just to bait Classic fans. That's the Classic Sonic that people hate.


But man, Sega of Japan kiboshing Mania due to jealousy and thinking they can do better is hilariously on brand. They've been so notoriously jealous whenever Sega of America outperforms them at anything.

 

So... they hate him in Forces, then. And I get that. He only gets 6/30 stages, one boss to himself, he doesn't even have a level in Metropolis, is the only character who never fights Infinite, and not a single one of the bonus/extra stages are his. It's like the IDEA is there, the concept is present, but it's not substantial enough to be satisfying.

But I'd describe just about everything in Sonic Forces like that. Aside from maybe the avatar creator, everything about it is so surface-level, you could say it was shoehorned in. And while I'll agree that Classic's gameplay is a particularly egregious example of it, given how little focus he gets, it's not a problem unique to HIM.

I keep seeing the argument that people have turned on Classic Sonic because of "games like" Forces, when there are no other games like Forces. Some people seem to feel he's been this overwhelmingly detrimental presence over the past 10 years... despite only appearing in three games since 1998. And two of those three are regularly considered among the best in the series.

Given that, I think it's fair to wonder if some people who'd rather the series cater more to their tastes might be resentful of the success Mania found, and might take Classic Sonic's portrayal in Forces as being more endemic than it ever actually was.

It's not entirely dissimilar to the way fans turned on Shadow in the 2000s: He was redundant and took the focus off of characters we liked (Sonic already had a double who could match his abilities in Metal, and a friendly rival in Knuckles), yet he was frustratingly popular with a demographic that wasn't us, and he kept showing up as a main character in games we didn't like. (But then again, at least those games weren't beloved by the masses the way that Mania was... I'm sure we'd have hated him even MORE if that had happened. )

 

Context is important, and its not exactly the same. Three games yes, but all of those games came in succession of each other. With the exception of Lost World, Classic is in every game from since he came back.

People didn't mind it in Generations because it was unique at the time, and nobody had any reason to assume that Sega would lean so heavily on the image (though in hindsight, that should have been obvious given history). So fast forward to 2016 after a three year hiatus due to the focus on Sonic Boom, people wanted a return to the main series and we got Mania, an entirely Classic styled game, cool. But then we got Forces, yet another game that has Classic in it, except the novelty of it has worn off now. So you got a game entirely dedicated to Classic fans and another game...also leaning on Classic aesthetics. Fact is, Classic wasn't really needed in Forces because there was already a game with him as the focus, so why put him in another game? The confusion of it is why people got upset.


Shadow isn't even a fair comparison because Sega already had plans on making him a mainstay in the series even before they brought him back, and isn't just a design aesthetic turned into a character. Shadow had a story arc with a beginning and an ending, Classic just kind of...existed. I understand the meaning behind the design for some people, but its not a 1:1 comparison at all because its still just a design at the end of the day.

 

I love Classic Sonic but even I'll admit wtf was he doing in Forces? He added literally nothing.

 

The distaste for Classic Sonic seems very strange but there is a very logical build up to it.

Sonic 4: Episode 1 releases and is a disaster. It's universally reviled, although it pisses off fans of the 3D games for berating anything that came after Sonic and Knuckles in its very aggressive announcement marketing. This sets the foundations for future grievances.

Sonic Generations releases and is overwhelmingly popular primarily because it was good and reviewed well. People wanted it to signal a new age of good Sonic games which never comes to pass. It has much diminished appreciation in the future because of what it is perceived to have started. But this is not really fair, the precedent was in many ways set with Sonic 4, although Generations certainly had some role in it.

Then we get Sonic Racing Transformed. The game is great, but it's also riffing off some familiar zones. Seaside Hill, Bingo Highway, Galactic Parade and Sky Sanctuary make their reappearance. Now no one really minds because the game is excellent and has a lot of original stages. But we are starting to see the same levels a lot now. In a racing game sequel it's perhaps acceptable, but we've now seen Casino themed levels in four games straight (Sonic Racing 1, Sonic 4: E1, Sonic Generations, Sonic Racing Transformed).

Then we get...Sonic Lost World and Sonic 4: Episode 2. Both games are mediocre, dull, and very derivative of past Sonic tropes. It's all starting to get a bit tiring now. Especially when we see the same tropes over and over again.

So when Sonic Forces comes out, which at the time of its announcement seems to be a brand new adventure, and Classic Sonic appears for seemingly no reason in the trailer, I'm not really surprised why people got angry. And to be honest, they were right. Forces did end up being a derivative game which re-used familiar stages such as Green Hill and Chemical Plant. It's incredibly boring, especially when Mania and Team Sonic Racing do the same thing.

People don't really hate Classic Sonic as a character, or even the classic games, but what he represents, which is calling back to the past. And not even just nostalgia pandering, but evoking the same handful of levels over and over again. Now I do think there is a bit of a melodramatic persecution complex going on. I doubt that SEGA really thinks that the 3D games are all trash and that the Classic Sonic motif is the pure direction of the franchise. I think it's a lot more superficial than that in SEGA's head. But I can also understand why fans start to think stuff like this when the franchise falls into such a holding pattern.

 

It would definitely be nice if the same small handful of "iconic" stages would stop recurring in seemingly every game. Calling back to earlier locales sometimes is fine, but we could have SO much more variety than this without even getting into the deep cuts. If I don't see Green Hill again until the 50th anniversary, MAYBE I'll actually miss it by then. :P

 

If you notice, most people's complaints are Sega constantly leaning on their past successes rather than trying to move the series forward. Classic Sonic is a cute callback, but he's emblematic of Sega's rather shallow marketing with the series. If you had mostly new content, then all of the classic iconography would just be cute throwbacks similar to how Nintendo leaned on Mario 3's aesthetic for a while. But throwbacks pretty much became the series` entire identity after Sonic Colors, with almost every game paying some homage to the Classics and not much else.

Now this obvious was Sega's way of appeasing the people who demanded more Classic content and them just delivering in the worst way possible, but you get the idea.

 

Ehh, I don't think I agree. Or at least, I'd argue there's a *lot* more nuance to it than that. It's more that the series' biggest SUCCESSES came in throwbacks, those being Generations and Mania. (And also, y'know, Generations was a throwback across the entire series, not just the classics.) But aside from them, let's see...

Lost World was a lot like Heroes: It had the classic aesthetic in new stages (though not necessarily new stage archetypes), but it did not at ALL have gameplay to match. Again, like Heroes, it was trying to sand down the less-accessible parts of 3D Sonic gameplay to appeal to a wider audience and pick up new fans. And with a sequel or two in that style, maybe it could've gotten there, but it was doomed to fail on the Wii U anyway.

Speaking of which, that description also overlooks Boom, and fair enough. I think we'd all like to forget it, and many have. But nonetheless, it was an attempt to overhaul the series' identity and establish a new branch, with the specific intent of finding a new audience. These were some of the LEAST throwback-y Sonic games we've ever had, and I think Sega had egregiously high hopes that it would gain more traction than it did. Especially in merchandise, those toys were everywhere.

And as much as you can accuse Forces of looking back (Classic Sonic, GHZ and CPZ again), it was paying homage to a lot more than just the classics (Adventure-y high-stakes story, Crush 40 vocal themes, Shadow DLC, an extended cast of heroes serving plot-relevant roles in the story, and way too many old villains for the game to actually do justice). For all the complaints Classic gets, I think it's often understated that it was packed with at least as many undercooked attempts to appeal to Adventure fans. We all got the short end of the stick, somehow.

But either way, we'd never had anything like the avatar. The more I play it, the more I feel that the part of Forces that had the most time and care put into it was there, and while that may not be saying much, the avatar is still the most defining aspect of the game.

 

Lost World also brought back a lot of old badniks, as is the first game to explicitly alter Sonic's design to look more like Classic (shorter limbs, and shorter spines), and like you said, doesn't have many original ideas to its name aside from the Parkour system.

I don't think Boom counts since its explicitly its own thing; if it was meant to be the focus of the series fine, but they made it clear that it was just a weird ass experiment.


And the Avatar is about the only original idea that Forces has, and is routinely pointed out as a bright spot. But it doesn't change the fact that the rest of the game is drowning in past iconography.

 

I agree too. While it made sense for Generations, the fact that Mania also is 1/2 preexisting locations is crazy to me. I wanted all new stages, not a retread.

Green Hill is so over represented in Sonic games it's maddening.

I hope one day we get a 2D classic game with entirely new stages.

 

While I absolutely agree and echo the sentiments on the shallow usage of classic Sonic iconography and tropes, I think it’s a little quaint that the game that best avoids this has been a new classic game, being Mania.

Yes, the majority of level locations are reused, and yes that’s a bit rubbish and many of us want an entirely original follow-up, but look at what Mania did.

First, many of these levels had never reappeared outside of their games of origin up until Mania’s release. Lava Reef, Hydrocity, Metallic Madness, Oil Ocean (ugh) - while dedicated communities such as ourselves are intimately familiar with these levels, I’d bet bottom dollar that they were perceived as deep cuts by more casual fans.

And beyond that are the level designs themselves and the set pieces within - several Acts of returning Zones either have completely original level layouts or mix and match familiar levels with new or different gimmicks, such as the Sky Base electric hazards in Flying Battery, or Knuckles’ entire unique segment in Lava Reef.

Compare this to Forces, where we get a level called Green Hill, that has GHZ’s aesthetics, but doesn’t do anything brave or new with the level mechanically. Even the place being turned into a desert, a transformation that could’ve introduced a whole host of new gimmicks, was never anything beyond set dressing.

I feel like Mania works in spite of its locale reusage because there’s so much vision and passion behind it. There’s a stark contrast in the end product when the people bringing us the third iteration of GHZ within a six year timespan are also the guys who are bonkers enough to turn the SegaSonic Popcorn Shop into a level set piece.

And I suppose that’s really the kind of attitude I want from the developers going forward. Yes, call back things if you want to, but it isn’t enough to just transplant the visuals and be done with it. Play on our expectations and subvert them to make something new out of what’s old. When the games do that, we’ll be able to fondly remember such levels all over again in a totally different way.

 

On the contrary, what you mentioned about the new elements in Mania's stages is the exact reason why it's frustrating they didn't just make something new. Why reuse locals when there was already a whole game that did that (Generations).

 

I honestly liked Sonic 4: Episode 1. I don't remember the marketing, though. I was just like, "Oh, a new 2D Sonic game that's a sequel to Sonic 3. Sounds good! Hey, now that I've played it, this is pretty good! Not as good as Sonic 3 and Knuckles, but oh well."

Sonic 4: Episode 2 is the part of Sonic 4 I don't really care for. Some of the levels are so merciless that it takes me a while to want to go back to playing it. And I don't like the interactive map. If we have to have a map in the game, I'd rather it be a simple graphic like in 8-Bit Sonic 1, or a fully playable world like in Sonic Adventure.

For me, it's more like, "Why do we need two Sonics?" I get one is from the past, but time travel is kind of silly and rarely works well as a plot device. I'd rather just let Sonic be older and say it's okay he got older.

 

So, it's been a few years... I guess I'll speak a bit about things I've heard through the grapevine regarding Mania's development. I have no firsthand knowledge here, I'm not gonna reveal my sources, and it's been quite a long time since I heard this, so definitely take this with a grain of salt. This is like, third or fourth-hand knowledge at minimum, so I'm sure some of it's wrong. Also, I don't really know how much of this is public knowledge, but I know the basic outline is. Either way, I do think it makes a lot of sense.

"Sonic Discovery" (the concept that would become Mania) was originally pitched as a much smaller project. The plan was to remake a slate of old stages in the Retro Engine, exactly as they existed in their original games, along with (hopefully, if it could be approved) a small handful of brand-new zones. It was Iizuka who suggested that they could remix those older stages, instead.

But when Iizuka took this concept to his bosses, he (perhaps severely) downplayed just how much new content would be in the game. It had to sound less ambitious than it really was to get approved, and in doing that, Iizuka was really sticking his neck out for the team, and for us. The reason for this, or so I've heard, actually fits with how Zippo discussed Sega's perspective on Classic Sonic.

Namely, the higher-ups see him as "old-hat," don't understand his appeal or potential, and (again, just going on things I've heard), still don't understand why Mania was the success that it was, or why it brought so much goodwill back to the brand. THAT'S why so much of it had to be built on old zones, because the decision-makers at Sega (or to be more accurate, its parent company, Sega Sammy Holdings) don't think there's any value there beyond remakes and nostalgia. That Mania came out as spectacularly as it did is a testament to the passion and drive of everyone involved, especially Iizuka. Yeah, they were stuck building off of old stages, but they did EVERYTHING they could under those constraints.

EDIT: And like... don't think the 3D series has been treated any better. This, I've heard, is pretty much how it's been for Sonic Team, whatever group was comprising Sonic Team, ever since Sega went third-party, and ESPECIALLY ever since the Sammy merger. An often burnt-out dev team with not enough resources, working incredibly hard and struggling to make the best product they can under the inconsistent, confused demands of higher-ups that don't really care about the series or understand its appeal, beyond using it to make a profit. Remember this?

 

I think ome of the distaste toward Classic Sonic is also just newer fans who grew up with the modern games and didn't like the attention Mania got, along with the aforementioned obsession with bringing classic back in half-assed ways for Generations, Forces, Sonic 4, etc... if I grew up ONLY loving modern Sonic I can see how that might be annoying to me.

But I mean, I didn't. Which is why I think it's kinda silly to hate Classic just because they gave him some attention for a little while. It's also why I'm confused that we even had a discussion about people's views of the franchise: I thought that was how most people here felt. I really have never gotten the sense that I'm unusual or different for liking some Classic games and some Modern games, that honestly seems like most people. Aside from Modern fans who grew up not knowing any of the Classics, and Classic fans who refuse to play literally anything else. It really isn't that uncommon I thought.

Also it doesn't help, like y'all said, that most of the new classic stuff has been mediocre at best - aside from Mania. I mean, most of the modern stuff has been mediocre too lately, but I think a lot of modern fans just want Sega to focus on the flagship modern stuff because they view this as kind of an experiment.

 

One one hand I kind of understand where SEGA are coming from. The laws of diminishing returns and everything. On the other, lmfao, they seem to be fucking useless

One thing I do think is consistent across all stories is how much of a boss Iizuka is. He's definitely made some game design blunders, but I get the impression that him and Hoshino genuinely care about Sonic, the fans, and the developers behind Mania. When you consider they are middle aged Japanese senior business men, it's honestly very impressive.

 

Agreed, Iizuka is like the White Knight of the franchise fighting the good fight to make Sonic great again. The more I learn about his honest passion for Sonic, the more I regret some of the very rude things I've said about him in the past.

 

Knowing how much Iizuka does for the series just makes it all of the more annoying when less informed fans are so quick to blame him for every shortcoming about the series; I really fucking hate seeing that shit and just how wildly accepted it is on sites like Twitter and Reddit. Game developers have the most thankless job ever from some of the most ungrateful groups of people who call themselves fans.

 

OK, I gotta take back what I've been saying about Iizuka these last few years.
If it's as you folks have been saying, him fighting an almost losing battle against SEGA itself, then I can only take my metaphorical hat to him.
It only reduces my hopes of seeing Sonic ever return to his glory of yore... :'(