Mario & Sonic is officially dead (at least, for now)

I kinda said this before, but I'll say it again. 2D Mario is more suited to blocky levels with slower, more precise movement. 2D Sonic is about flinging yourself off of extremely NOT blocky terrain and going very fast. If you just put an un-altered Mario in a 2D Sonic level, he'll move too slow to work well. If you put an un-altered Sonic in a 2D Mario level, his movement will be too fast and floaty to land jumps well.

 

I think Sonic 4 for SNES accidentally gave an interesting ideia how a Mario and Sonic crosover could kinda work on plataforming game:

 

I think it's being exaggerated how mutually exclusive any of this stuff really is. As a Marble & Labyrinth Zones Enjoyer™, I think Sonic demonstrably works just fine in blocky terrain. Mario is also neither exclusively slow nor bound to blocky level geometry. SMB1 introduced a run button, and SMB3 introduced slopes. Hell, SMW's pink triangle blocks are borderline quarter pipes, allowing Mario run from the ground up walls.

But also, yeah, we can and should alter them a bit too. Just not as much as you'd think. Give them more similar movement, and make their levels more similar. Insofar as Sonic's movement and level design is built on top of what Mario did before, I'd just bring Mario "up to speed", so to speak. Having Mario accelerate, control, and interact with terrain like any other 2D Sonic character, only without the ability to either roll along the ground or curl into a ball when he jumps, is very easy for me to imagine. Having "Mario levels" with more sloping terrain is also very easy for me to imagine.

But the more I type this out, the more apparent it is that there are so many different ways you can handle a platforming crossover. Do we make it more like a Sonic game on a base level like I've laid out? What about more like a Mario game? One that alternates styles? What if you did two "versions", ie: "Mario & Sonic" which plays more like a Mario game (no Sonic-styled sloping levels, characters have a run button, etc.) and "Sonic & Mario" which plays more like a Sonic game (Sonic-styled sloping levels, characters don't have a run button, etc.)?

 

I feel making Mario as fast as Sonic and his friends would look ridiculous. Especially considering that lore-wise Mario isn't supposed to be as fast as Sonic. The character is known for his jumping ability, sometimes for his athleticism, but not for being a speedster like Sonic or the Flash. It would look like Somari without the spindash and roll.

It would also be a significant departure from the Mario formula. Yes, Mario games use momentum, but nowhere near to the same extent as Sonic. He doesn't progressively gain/lose speed on slopes. Once he reaches his max speed (which happens almost immediately after he starts running) it remains constant. Even when he does his wall-running in SMW with the aforementioned triangles, his speed is uniform.

 

You make a good point about Sonic 1's levels, but when I was talking about blocky terrain, I was thinking more of SMB1's style of level design. In there, the game wants you to precisely land on tiny platforms. Marble zone's platforms are much bigger. You can see what I'm talking about when playing as Sonic in Boll Deluxe. Sonic moves too fast to accurately land on those tiny platforms, causing you to frequently overshoot your jumps.

What you suggested in the "bring Mario up to speed" part is kinda what I was thinking of. My ideal 2D Mario/Sonic crossover would be a 4-player co-op game with level designs that take cues from both Mario and Sonic. Yesterday afternoon, I made a bunch of sketches of this concept of mine.

 

Just in case anyone is wondering, the 'Games games are on sale again. Mario and Sonic at a much lower discount, but The Official Video Game is $8 and multiplatform (sale ends 8/15 instead on PlayStation, didn't check XB/Steam)

 

Mario & Sonic never goes for sale on the UK eShop. I've been waiting since it came out, but it never has a sale.
Now I am worried that if I buy it after waiting for so long that it will have a sale the next day!

 

This would be a good point were it not in a discussion about Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games, a series where Mario competes on even footing in flat running races against Sonic.

... I mean, it does look ridiculous, but it's an established standard for the series.

 

I would love an RPG crossover akin to the first Paper Mario. Something quirky and irreverent that poked fun at both series's tired tropes

I would also probably enjoy a Mario and Sonic Party game just for some easy fun to play with the family.

 

SMB1 already made Mario way more fast and athletic than he was in Mario Bros. arcade or DK1. That Sonic is even more fast and athletic isn't in dispute. I don't think Mario matching Sonic's level would look ridiculous, at least not any more than 2D Sonic games already look.

When other Sonic characters who are lore-wise slower than him can match his speed in games, this is also not a problem. Unless, again, your ideal crossover would emphasize the way the two contrast rather than relate. Which could also be neat, but not where my head's at.

I'll need to give Boll Deluxe a try, sounds interesting.

 

Who said that it was okay when Sonic games do it?

I also take issue with canonically slower characters in Sonic being superfast in gameplay. There is nothing more ridiculous than freaking Big running at the speed of sound in Heroes

That's to say nothing of the fact it makes it makes Sonic's speed and abilities seem vanilla when everyone else is about as fast.


Anyway, when you see Mario running in his games, you don't get the "superfast speedster" vibe you get in Sonic games. You get "athletic guy running", or maybe "cartoony guy doing a cartoony run" (when using the pink triangles in SMW). Seeing Mario turn into a speedster who can keep up with Sonic in a crossover game would make him feel less like Mario and more like a Sonic reskin, even without the roll and spindash.

That's not the gameplay people expect from Mario. I imagine fans would feel shortcharged that you don't get the Mario character and gameplay in the crossover platformer, but a Sonic reskin with Sonic gameplay.

 

I always felt a Mario & Sonic platforming title would just take the Sonic Generations approach, giving each of them separate stages with their own level design. It seems a lot simpler than trying to find a messy middle ground between the two.

 

Probably the simplest approach. If you want to get spicy you can swap the themes but keep the general structure and philosophy for each character. Like a blocky Green Hill, or a Delfino Plaza full of slopes and springs.

 

Mario both is very fast on flat ground in Super Mario 3 and gains lots of speed sliding down slopes. I honestly think with 3's physics you could make something inbetween that works for both of them. Especially if Mario had powerups to assist him and he could be like Advance Amy against Sonic.

 

I always thought there was something that inhibited Sonic's speed or Knuckles's strength, and it wasn't just them holding back. I mean, they seem to care enough about the lore to give Sonic floaties during the freestyle swimming event. Surely they have some kind of explanation as to why Sonic is slowed down.

 

Sonic really does have skill issues

 

I'm actually kinda upset we won't have a new Mario & Sonic game because now we won't have shit like this:


Edit: Ok to be fair, older Olympic games had shooting sport, but I don't think none of them did shoot like this lol

 

I'd highly recommend it. Even if the Sonic part doesn't click for you, the rest of the game is a pretty solid Mario fangame with some Sonic elements thrown in (Special Stages and certain Sonic enemies). It also has a very strong presentation with the art and music on display. A lot of it being custom made just for this title!

The newest versions I shared earlier on itch.io are kinda doing their own thing in terms of level design, but are marked as 'Old Engine' due to the current team's desire to re-code the game from scratch. The earlier versions are pretty much a straight remake of SMB1. I'd perhaps recommend the latest one on itch.io I shared earlier (though certain characters such as Bowser are noticeably unfinished).

I do agree the game is a bit finicky with how the Sonic characters handle with the more precise areas, but a lot of Sonic's abilities actually translate pretty well to a Mario gameplay format once you understand how far you can push the speed of the Sonic side of the cast. Spindashing a group of enemies to rack up points is just very satisfying.

Given there seems to be a greater effort in the recent releases to not only re-code the entire engine from scratch, but to also re-do the level design so it's not just 'Bros. 1 with Sonic in it', I think the next major release might reach a happier medium where both characters feel really good to play as without feeling as twitchy on Sonic's end.

On the topic of the Mario & Sonic series getting canned though...

Eh I'm not too torn up about it. I was super excited as a kid to see the two officially cross over, but I always passed them over because I was never very interested in the Olypmics and wanted something that wasn't just a minigame collection. The most I've interacted with them outside of hearing one or two remixes from the titles are out of context moments from one of the Story Mode's present in the game, which gave me a smile. Seeing the praise for them as solid minigame collections does make me think I should reconsider playing them, however.

I think the series could probably still continue without the Olympic branding and with Mario getting the boot. I think it's likely they might try the format again as a mobile only title similar to that Sonic Rumble title that popped up a little while ago. Call it 'Sonic Sports' or whatever.