Discussion in 'Project: Sonic Retro (Archive)' started by Retro_Stew, Nov 9, 2008.
He wasn't whining.
<!--quoteo(post=282099:date=Feb 21 2009, 10:34 PM:name=muteKi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (muteKi @ Feb 21 2009, 10:34 PM) </a>
The old sprite is the one on the right; notice the area in the box. The way the different shadings meet define Sonic's head as having a very strange angle there indeed. I'm quite used to it appearing mostly round or at least smooth, which the revised one more or less does.[/quote]
Muteki already pointed out one of the differences between the final and my edit, and my reasons are the same has him. But that's not the only one
Sonic is round. We all know this. So why his head can't be a bit more soft? I removed one pixel from each side, and now it looks a little smoother.
Shine on rear shoe is wrong. The shine can't be in that place. Moved the shine and changed its direction.
Sonic's nose seems to point upward (or, alternately, seems to get bigger in the end). Changed two pixels.
They all have the same explanation. Front ear, bottom qull, front arm, front sock, white stripes can all be a little more texturized and/or have different colors.
This wasn't in the sprite I posted yesterday, because I noticed it today. Front ear and rear ear are at a different heigh. Since it isn't very clear which ear his exactly wrong, I changed both.
Summing up, this are all the edits, plus the ears one I spotted today.
Even after all the differences are pointed out, looking at them side by side I still have trouble seeing them. To the general onlooker, playing the game, do you think they will really notice either way ? They look pretty almost exactly the same, so really.. what's the point ?
True enough but why not strive for perfection
Because then we'd still be discussing the same Sonic sprite in April instead of getting every other frame done. Tiny little details like these can be easily changed once everything else is done.
I think someones already working on the sprite sheet and to be fair if I was doing it I would want to know what I was doing before hand rather than making the same edit to a load of sprites I had already drawn further down the line.
I agree that the changes now are bordering on the trivial but I see no harm in keeping up the debate, ultimately the final edit will be decided by whoever puts in the time and effort to make the sprites.
For the 998st time, normal Sonic's sprite has been decided. If I see any more discussion on this blasted idle stance, I'm handing out warns to all parties involved. Do Super Sonic. Do Sonic running. Do Spin Dash. Do anything but this god forsaken idle sprite!
Good god. This nonsense is exactly why the old project got absolutely nowhere.
Oh god... I suck so bad.
Striving for perfection is the biggest fallacy present in ALL sorts of creative endeavors. Calling something "perfect" is tenuous at best and is only really used in conversation in the context of referring to something meeting some sort of standard. The fact of the matter is that the only way to make progress in a project of this nature is to set concrete goals, a specific set of standards, and make sure the completed work crosses the thresholds of those standards and meets those goals.
There will always be something wrong with the sprite. Make a few edits here and there and new problems creep up. One person will consider their changes perfect while someone else will come along and give their equally sound logic as to why it was fine the way it was before. What results is an endless back-and-forth between people with slightly different visions operating under their own arbitrary standards and playing tug of war with each other, all the while spending extra resources and wasting time that could be better used to other endeavors. Well guess what? Chimpo decided that the idle sprite completed *weeks* ago was good enough for his purposes, and has used that as a base for working on the very numerous sprites and animations needed before the thing could be used at all. While everyone here keeps scuffling about, they've moved on. You all should too.
You don't see the harm? Do you not see where we are again? We went from a walk and run animation back to a fucking idle sprite. That's the fucking harm right there. You are denying fucking progress by "debating" over these bullshit trivial crap.
Guess who's putting that time and effort to make the sheet?
I am not changing the idle sprite, you can all god damn stop now.
I was agreeing with people about not needing to change it, I knew you were working on the sprite sheet hence why I mentioned about actually putting the effort into doing something. I was mearly pointing out that just discsuing it isn't really a problem, some people just like debating about stuff for fun which is essentially the reason behind the project, something to do for fun.
Like you said you're the only one doing anything with the sprites so there's no danger in anyone taking these edits and actually doing anything with them, the majority of people talking about it aren't going to be producing any content anyway so its not even a wasted resource. Can't balme me for being interested in what other peoples opinions on things are, regardless of if we use them or not.
This particular discussion isn't fun. It's demoralizing for me in particular because you assholes aren't happy with anything. I don't want to hear about your vision or your standards on something that has been finalized. I don't want to hear any of it, I just want to make progress already.
Why is this so hard for you to understand? Are you all mentally incompetent?
I wouldn't be insulting you guys if you actually had some progress of your own going, but you never do. We take a step forward only to go two steps back.
At this point I'm thinking of taking the Kojima route. Just completely shut down on any info, do a majority of the artwork myself and once I have enough to have some basic game structure going, reveal it. Because really, the community effort is a joke.
I have plenty of work, ideas and concept art currently in storage somewhere on my computer, I just felt it would be best to save it for an appropriate time to post it due to the whole one level at a time thing.
My comments were never ment to cause any controversy, im not much of a spriter myself so I don't really have much of an opinion on how things should look. I just enjoy passing the time till I can make a positive contribution by browsing through the topic and looking at the alterations.
I would just like to say I think supersonic, if made, should be based of the sonic 2 supersonic instead of the later ones which look like a gold shadow sprite. Would be quite wild and awesome looking.
Regarding Diablohead's comment, I'd believe it's Shadow who is a black SuperSonic. But we digress. If we have permission to edit freely, and if someone could help me with the pallettes, I'm willing to try Super Sonic.
I can only dream.
Well, I wouldnt like to, being a noob, start out attacking the sheet right away, buuut... I WOULD be willing to work on them. Just give me indication on how should it run... is said Jump what happens when he jumps normally, or on a spring?
And why do you think this is happening? Who caused it?
It's true, all we do is complain, and no one actually does something. I already said something similar a while back. Unfortunately it is in the human nature: different people have different opinions, it's a matter of fact. Nothing can please everyone. Perfection doesn't exist. And not everyone has some talents, and even if he/she has them, it is unlikely that he/she is a master in all the arts.
But have you ever wondered why we don't do anything? Why we don't even try?
Because you keep ignoring us.
Before going on, it is better to say that this is something that can be related to the whole project, and not something only for the sprite.
When someone posts something, it is expected that someone else will comment whatever was posted, especially in a communuty project. Humans are like this, they want attentions, being it good or bad. But what happens when no one says anything? When the poster is ignored? He/she starts to lose interest.
Someone posts a concept on a possible new monitor. The concept is not that great, but it's nice, and it has a good potential.
What should happen now? The community start to discuss this new monitor, and, step by step, this concept become better, and finally finds its way into the game.
What really happens? The post is ignored and no one cares about it. Why this happens? Maybe because some doesn't like it, or maybe because another concept posted after this seems better. The members are distracted by other things and in the end the concept is forgotten. Why should the original poster bother in posting another one, since, in the end, the same thing will happen?
Someone posts a music. The music is very catchy, but some parts needs improvement because are rather bland or lack a bit in the voices choice.
What should happen now? The community members will try to explain what parts they like and what parts not. Other members, mainly the other composers, try to do their take of the same tune.
What really happens? Most of the members never care of saying anything. Other composers will then create other songs, and the original song will be long forgotten for the same reason as before. Why should he/she do another track?
Someone posts an object. The sprite is really good, and it fits perfectly with the other sprites of its kind. The maiority of the community likes it.
What should happen now? The spriters work together and make it even better. Other members approve the changes. The sprite is optimized and it ends in the game.
What really happens? The initial entusiasm little by little starts to go away. Someone else posts another object, and the discussion moves on to this new one, even if the other one wasn't finished. Members are distracted, and in the end they forget about the first one. Again, the one who posted starts to lose interest, and in the end he/she doesn't post anything else.
Someone posts a level art. The guy has style, but the art is too simple, and uses very little colors. Also some members say that it is bad.
What should happen now? Comments say the art is bad, and everyone try to explain their problem with the art. At this point 2 things could happen: The art improves, piece by piece, and in the end it become good; or the art doesn't manage to improve enough and it is scrapped (or it is scrapped because a superior art appears)
What really happens? Someone says the art is bad, and only a limited quantityu of them actuallyexplains why. But other members do not say anything. He/She is labeled as a bad artist and no one cares anymore of what he/she posts, even if he/she is improving. One day he/she just stop posting, and no one notices this.
In the end, the same thing happens every time, and even less members keep on contributing.
And returning to the initial matter: You are the one ignoring everything else.
Someone says the current sprite is bad. However, instead of just complaining, or as other says, "bawwwwwwwwing", he decide to understand why he doesn't like it. In the end he posts an edited version of the sprite with most of the problems, in his opinion, fixed. Some members do not immediately notice the edits (meaning that he managed to not alter the base frame), other says they like the edited version more, even if just by little (because it really fixed some problems the sprite had).
What should happen now? The leader tells the poster that the sprite is already final, so unless he edits all the already made frames the sprite can't be changed, and he can't change them all because he is already working on some other sprites or frames and the project will risk to return to the beginning again. The poster then says that this is not a problem and that he will start to work on the other frames immediately. The leader continue to make other frames, and in the meanwhile the poster edits the past frames one by one, finally reaching the last sprite posted. The leader hasn't done more work, and the sprite now is liked more. Someone makes a base for a frame, others improve that base. This is what a Community Project should be.
What really happens? The leader completely ignore all the edits, even if other members said they prefer it to the original, without even bothering of telling if they are better or not. The leader then says he is doing all the work and no one is helping, without however bothering to ask for help. The poster doesn't understands why the leader acts like this, since he was ready to do all the editing work, and he tries to ask for the reasons behind the leader behavior. But he keeps getting ignored, and in the end he stops contributing (or this is what a not very stubborn person will do).
Maybe it is not clear to you, but this game isn't called "Chimpo makes a Sonic game", but it is called "Project: Sonic Retro".
This is a community project, not a one-man effort. One man will never manage to do something so big, because, even if this sounds new to you, this isn't the usual fangame, but it is something more: trying to understand what is a Sonic game, and then improving it perfectly. This is something that a common team will never achieve. But this project started in this forum, where to most talented Sonic fans are members. This may sound weird, but if someone decided to do something like this in every other forum, even if they somehow managed to complete it, the result would have not been a true Sonic game. But in this forum, where the best Sonic programmers, who already know everything of the Sonic engine; the best Sonic musicians, who managed to understand what makes a song a Sonic song; the best Sonic spriters, who can create sprites with the exact style of the Sonic games; and the true Sonic fans, who knows what a Sonic game truly is; where all of these people are members, then this project is possible. But this will be possible only if they all work together. If only one of them does this game, then it will make only the usual Sonic fangame. But if they work together, then they can make a Sonic game better than Sonic 3 & Knuckles. From something like this, someone would expect the highest quality possible, so sorry for tring to do my best to improve this game, even in a minor way!
In my opinion, what Chimpo has been doing is a good idea. I'm pretty sure he knows this isn't "Project Chimpo," everyone is aware of that fact. This project is a community effort, but don't you think getting actual ground work would help out the possibility of this thing taking shape a lot more then nit picking how tall or blue Sonic is?
You guys need to remember, everything we do at this point is without a doubt not the final product. Things will be agreed upon and used, but overtime as the project progresses many things about it will change. That's the beauty of progression and right now no progression has been made in terms of having an actual working/playable game. In my opinion and experience working on a few projects(even now), getting the basic work done in a Sonic sheet, background, and game play leveled out is all we should be focusing on. To be honest I don't think my Sonic is perfect either, hell, nothing I mean NOTHING is perfect. You can only go so far with the very word, and yet you can do so much to waste so much of your time achieving it.
Chimpo says we have a programmer ready to work on whatever is brought his way, so for now I say we should focus on getting the bare basics done so we can see this zone get completed. For now, just hold off on making major changes to Sonic himself until the game itself is actually playable. If we always bicker on making Sonic look more and more perfect we'll become too tired, annoyed, and bitter with each other to do anything else at all. Trust me, I've seen it happen and it's absolutely pitiful. Retro is more organized then those kind of people, so I would be pretty saddened to see that happen here too.
tldr; Chimpo is the quality and bullshit control we need, and alienating members from this project is not what I think he is trying to do at all.
And to be honest, making major revisions to Sonic after the programming isn't that difficult to do to be honest, if that's what everyone is in fear of.
1. Get main stuff done
2. Polish, nit pick, change and decide what stays and goes after the game is playable in some form
(Thanks GerbilSoft :D)
in b4 I said some stupid shit somewhere and Tweaker or God comes down on me like Thor's hammer
STHX: Why don't you use your talent in producing the other sprites that need doing, instead of complaining over an arrangement of pixels on Sonic's head?
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