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Little things you wish Sega had done differently

Discussion in 'General Sega Discussion' started by doc eggfan, Sep 26, 2023.

  1. Azookara

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    The DVD player half of it was a massive reason people bought the machine, especially in the US (the other half was backwards compat and positive buzz around the Playstation brand). I assume it wasn't a huge selling point in the UK/Europe, considering how people on Retro speak of it. But DVD had America by storm in a very, very short time.

    The graphics on Metal Gear Solid 2 vs Sega Rally or whatever was only ever going to matter to us nerds reading gaming mags. If MGS2 left any imprint on why people bought a PS2 instead, it was that it existed at all. And of course Sony was going to make sure they had it on their system after the first one did so monstrously well, so that's a no-brainer.

    EA skipping Dreamcast makes a little more sense to affect sales, but considering the acclaim and popularity the 2K brand has built up since (and that EA Sports wasn't truly the monolithic titan of the sports genre until the mid-later 2000s) I don't think that was the definitive killer of DC's success. You could count other games they made of the time too, sure, but EA wasn't really on Nintendo 64 either. Most of EA's fans were just going to stick to Playstation consoles the same way Square Enix fans would.

    I think it was a lot of things piling up. A controller with fewer buttons than last time while the competition was making room for more. Not only no DVD player; but a format easily pirated in short-term and unviable in storage space for long-term. A company with a poor reputation it had to rebuild versus two others in great standing. A mountain of debt that the company needed to thread the eye of a needle to wave off. It all played a part.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2023
  2. The Joebro64

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    The idea that piracy had any substantial impact on the Dreamcast's demise is nonsense. Dreamcast sales were already declining by January 2000, and Sega posted a $400 million loss for FY2000 in March. This was months before the MIL-CD vulnerability was discovered. Not to mention, the PS1 had the same piracy problems the Dreamcast did on a much greater scale, yet that didn't affect sales at all.

    Sega's poor management and reputation, poor third-party support, weak marketing, and the popularity of the PlayStation brand are what killed the Dreamcast. Piracy didn't have anything to do with it.
     
  3. Azookara

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    Alright. Just because there was a decline starting earlier doesn't mean it couldn't turn around, nor that the piracy didn't affect anything. But I digress.

    We really could try to point at what's to blame and call each other wrong back and forth all day on these things, but my greater point is what you're also saying. It was a number of things all hitting at once.

    But if I were to pick the greatest one, above all else imo, it's the accumulated debt from the 32X/Saturn double whammy. If Nintendo survived from making many similar mistakes during Gamecube (inferior disc format, lack of third party support, Virtual Boy and N64DD being flops and total missteps, weak marketing, everyone wanting PlayStation) then the only true answer is how much money they had on hand. Nintendo had a lot of saved up money, but Sega was deep in the red by the time they even started DC's development. Had the 32X and Saturn's missteps not truly bled them dry, could the Dreamcast era have made made all these mistakes and still survived through the gen?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2023
  4. Black Squirrel

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    I'm British and was there - DVD was a selling point. But it did coincide with DVD players becoming more and more affordable - in December 2000 you could buy a Dreamcast and a (more capable) DVD player for £299.99 (the same price of a PS2) - a few months later, you could get the two for less.

    Piracy I've talked about before. Metal Gear Solid 2 didn't release until November 2001 - it was at E3 2000, but did it start affecting Dreamcast sales 18 months before launch? I wouldn't want to call it.
     
  5. doc eggfan

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    I think in hindsight, it probably would have been better if the Dreamcast didn't launch with a modem, but was designed around including a modem about 12 months after launch. It just made launching the system too complicated (especially in Europe) and none of the early titles even had online gaming. It also would have focused the early marketing on the leap in graphics, which was probably the only actual selling point they had at the time.

    And then, 12 months down the track after you've had time to build the infrastructure and iron out the kinks in online, you do a new launch for a 56k modem with a stronger line up of online multiplayer games. Looking at the games that had early online support in Japan, you could have focused on Sega Rally 2, Virtua Tennis, Marvel vs Capcom 2, Chu Chu Rocket and NFL 2K1, which would have given a fair bit of variety, with Quake III and Phantasy Star not far on the horizon. You then try and use this second launch to try and deflect attention away from the PS2 hype machine.

    I'm still not sure that this would have changed anything. Accessing the internet back then was not as easy and cheap as it is today. There was no wifi, you'd be tying up the landline so the rest of the family couldn't receive or make calls, probably with a long physical cable as a tripping hazard down the hall to your bedroom or lounge room, and you'd be probably be racking up a massive phone bill debt every month. I'm not sure that there was a way for Sega to overcome these issues. The only possible solution would be for Sega to strike some kind of deal with the telco companies in each jurisdiction to make Dreamcast online play unlimited for a nominal monthly fee or something like that, but this would have been difficult and costly to make arrangements like this in every territory. Also, some kind of wireless receiver from the phone socket to the bedroom would have been neat, but probably beyond the technological limitations of the time.
     
  6. Overlord

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    I'm British and was also there - can confirm that the DVD drive was indeed a selling point, I know people who bought the PS2 just for that and never touched any games. I can't recall if the machine was a DVD player for me though - I think it might have been for a short time, but I bought my PS2 myself some time in late 2001/early 2002 and then ended up getting a dedicated standalone DVD player for Xmas after that. I was never hugely into DVD until later though, I only had a handful of films.
     
  7. Black Squirrel

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    200+ games support the modem - it wasn't an under-utilised feature, but almost certainly a misunderstood one. But I'm not sure you can get around that - in Japan it was marketed as a information tool - DLC, online leaderboards, general news and of course as a basic web browser, (because they knew the infrastructure wasn't there), but in the West, "games machine" + "online" = "online games machine".

    I'm not sure if Japan's tactics actually paid off, but for 1998/1999, the Dreamcast was very good at being a tailored internet box thing.

    Really they should have had a competitive online game at the Western launch, even if it was something simple, just to prove it could be done, but I guess it's hard to put yourself in that mindset - you're already struggling to explain what the internet is, nevermind "what it could be".
     
  8. doc eggfan

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    Here's an interesting thought. Apart from online features and better graphics, what other unique features does the Dreamcast have that no other console offers? The Dreamcast probably had the most diverse range of official peripherals than any other system before or since. How do Sega capitalise on this?

    It's June 2000, 9 months into the Dreamcast's life... and Father's day is around the corner. Sega releases a Dreamcast bundle with fishing controller and Sega Bass Fishing for $150 with a big advertising campaign that is targeted towards mature adults and family friendly fun - kind of reminiscent of how Nintendo would sell the Wii 6 years later. No-one really knows what to buy for Father's day, and many Dad's at this time probably grew up with the Atari VCS or NES but have drifted away from gaming since then. It's an untapped market with huge potential and could have been a big step into getting the Dreamcast in households and under television sets. If you set up online leader boards for Sega Bass Fishing, you have a trojan horse for getting the Dreamcast positioned as something the whole family supports as being online.

    This is all with the benefit of hindsight though, based on how the Wii was a success years later. No-one would probably have thought this was a good strategy back in the day.
     
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  9. Hivebrain

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    I never saw any, or heard of anyone owning, pirate DC games. There seemed to be a big market for pirate PS1 games though. Some people regularly set up an impromptu market stall on a Sheffield high street, consisting of a few crates of games on the floor. One time while me and a friend were browsing, the police showed up and the sellers hurriedly grabbed the crates and sprinted off. It was very amusing.
     
  10. Blue Spikeball

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    I disagree. Early games made extensive use of online. Plenty of them had free DLC, SA1 had online competitions and leaderboards with physical rewards, and the ability to share Chao online. One of the websites included by default in the web browser's bookmarks allowed players to share savegames of any Dreamcast game. Then there were the official game boards accessible in-game, which were a big part of the experience, as a big selling point of the online feature was the communities and interactions between players.

    It might not have had online multiplayer from the onset, which is what you think of when you hear "online gaming" nowadays. But back in the day when the internet was relatively new and online gaming was niche and most people had no experience with it, the online integration in a console out of the box was pretty amazing for most people.

    An extra screen per player that could be detached and turned into a handheld mini-console.

    Well, the PS1 copied the VMU with the PocketStation, but the latter lacked the "extra screen" feature.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2023
  11. Gryson

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    A brief history lesson:

    The Dreamcast would likely not exist without the modem.

    Prior to the Dreamcast, there was already strong pressure within Sega to withdraw from the hardware market. There was no sense of "defeat" about this - it was just a sound business move. The horrible third-party restrictions that Nintendo imposed were no longer a concern, and Sony offered a great deal.

    Enter Isao Okawa - Sega chairman and founder/president of Sega parent company, CSK. CSK was not doing well at the time, and Okawa was focusing more of his attention on Sega, which was having some leadership problems under Nakayama. Okawa began to take an active role in Sega, despite having basically no familiarity with the game industry.

    Okawa had one very broad dream: To create a "Sega CSK", a company that combined CSK's software business with Sega's consumer business. The immediate goal he latched onto was to release a home internet-capable device through Sega (the Dreamcast). He didn't care about the gaming aspect of the device. He simply wanted an affordable way for the average person to access the internet without a PC. There was much debate at Sega over this. Nakayama firmly believed that any hardware they released must be solely gaming-focused. Others believed Sega should not attempt another console release.

    Okawa then made an unbeatable offer: If the modem-equipped Dreamcast failed, he would use his vast fortune to bail the company out. He would cover all of the losses associated with the Dreamcast. Nakayama had lost the debate, and he quit Sega entirely over it.

    The Dreamcast launched, but it failed to become the internet device that Okawa had hoped it would be. With the experiment a failure and Sega deeply in the red, the plug was pulled on the Dreamcast early. As he lay dying from throat cancer, Okawa signed over approximately $850 million from his personal fortune to Sega, cancelling out the $800 million hole the Dreamcast had put Sega in.

    To understand the Dreamcast, you have to understand that it was the dream of one man, Isao Okawa, and that in his eyes it had nothing to do with gaming.
     
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  12. Trippled

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    There was one interview with Yu Suzuki that mentioned that Sega should have made a motion controller. I agree with this. Sega's expertise was location based, special controls entertainment, not internet based stuff.
     
  13. doc eggfan

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    This reminds me of the original plan for the VMU as an IRL pager for Headhunter.

    Imagine in the Headhunter game world you agree to meet an informant at 6pm tomorrow night. You save the game, a simple scripted event is saved as a mini game to your VMU and you go to bed. You get up the next day and go about your day with the VMU in your pocket. However, your train home is delayed and you're not going to get home by 6pm. Your VMU beeps at 6:10pm and you have a pager message on the screen "WHERE ARE YOU?" You get home at 7:30pm, turn the game on and the save file recalibrates based on the time - you go to the place you agreed to meet and find that the informant is dead.

    I wish they had managed to make this work in the final game, as it would have been magical.
     
  14. Overlord

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    Ah, now this I can dispute. I knew exactly one person I went to school with who had a DC, and he had pirate games; and at uni (albeit this was a few years later, like 2003) a friend had an entire BINDER of burnt games.
     
  15. Black Squirrel

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    I lost the list but there are precise records of when games were made available by the pirates (i.e. edited in such a way that they could be burnt to a CD-R). It took a few months to build up the library - it wasn't actually possible to pirate most Dreamcast titles en masse for a while (especially games which actually benefited from the GD-ROM's extra capacity).

    A friend had a big box of pirated PS1 games (most of which didn't work properly), but I would imagine by the time the Dreamcast got to that stage, we'd be well into 2001. Combined with the fact most Dreamcast owners were probably Sega loyalists, I'd guess the market just wasn't there.

    Unless you were living in Russia, where it absolutely was. But we're talking 2002/2003 at that point - it's not going to make a difference to Sega's bottom line.
     
  16. The Joebro64

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    Piracy didn't hit the Dreamcast until July 2000, when a hacking group discovered and publicized the ability to exploit MIL-CD support to boot games off of CDs. The thing is,

    (A) this happened when the writing was already on the wall. Sales had already tanked and Sega was burning through money fast. Piracy didn't move the needle; the needle had already been moved. To use a Pendersian phrase, it was too late to the draw.
    (B) Pirating games wasn't as simple as just burning the files to a CD. CDs couldn't hold as much as GD-ROMs so many games needed to get hacked down to be burnable, and this was a very time-consuming process. It could take months before it was possible to burn a specific game.

    By the time Dreamcast piracy was widespread, Sega had already abandoned the Dreamcast and moved to third-party development.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2023
  17. doc eggfan

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    This is a reality I had not considered before. Imagine if Sega had quit in 1997 and we started to see Sega third party titles on Nintendo 64 and Playstation - Sonic Adventure on N64? Crazy Taxi on PS1?
     
  18. Level Zone Act

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    For anyone who's never seen that advert, here it is for your viewing pleasure:



    That advert has stuck in my memory ever since I first saw it on TV, because for me it's is right up there as one of the most facepalm-worthy things Sega ever did (and there are a lot to choose from).
     
  19. doc eggfan

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    In the decades after the demise of the Dreamcast, it's interesting to look back and track the design progression of the Sega arcade boards.
    • The NAOMI and NAOMI 2 were bespoke dreamcast based hardware, with a console like appearance with space for a (sideways) cartridge slot. Note that the power supply, controller board, audio amplifier and GD-rom drive were all separate components, so it was still a mess of cables and components inside the cabinet
    • The Lindbergh was basically a gaming PC running windows or Linux. The power supply and DVD drive and controller boards remained separate components, but things like the audio amplifier board were starting to consolidate inside the PC case. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I'm pretty sure that the Lindbergh didn't require the DVD drive to remain connected once the game was installed, only the anti-piracy security chip was required (whereas the NAOMI needed the GD-rom every time the system was restarted).
    • The RingEdge and RingWide systems were even more consolidated. Everything started to be installed inside the PC case, such as the power supply and even the JVS I/O controller board (I thnk?). At this point, it literally is just a gaming PC inside the arcade cabinet, with very few to no extra wires or components outside the chasis.
    I'm not 100% clear on this, but I'm pretty sure that for some game releases, Sega started to use it's maturing it's ALL.net arcade network to distribute games digitally to arcade operators, rather than physical DVD media. Games required a verified account and an internet connection back to the Sega server to run, and there is a whole sub-culture of arcade game enthusiasts in the West who have to resort to hacking and piracy to get the games to run outside of Japan and outside of access to that Sega All.net network.

    Also around the time of the RingEdge and RingWide launch, there were ridiculous rumours circulating about Sega re-entering the home consumer console market. I don't think there is any evidence of them every considering re-entering the console market with a big retail launch, but I had thought there might have been a small element of truth to this rumour. Sega is basically selling a Sega-branded gaming PC to arcade operators, that is connected to a Steam-like digital game download service. Since the number of arcade operators are starting to dwindle, especially in the West, what is stopping Sega from selling this gaming PC to home consumers? I don't mean they suddenly ramp up production and distribute millions of units to retail stores, but they just set up a modest online presence to mail out these systems to anyone interested, with an ongoing subscription to the All.net service. It would basically be something akin to the Atari Box/Atari VCS, which by and large was ridiculed by the uncaring masses, but has managed to find a small dedicated fan base and has a niche appeal to people who are fond of the Atari brand. I imagine Sega could have done something similar with the RingEdge, although I imagine it would have been ridiculously expensive and the Sega branding and limited range of games would not have been enough of a selling point when compared to an equivalent spec'ed normal gaming PC with a Steam account would have offered better value for money, but it could have been an interesting experiment. Say that RingEdge games get a period of exclusivity before being ported to home consoles and PC, and you'd be competing on online leaderboards with other Ringedge owners and people still visiting arcades in Japan. It could have built a special little niche community.

    Sega also seemed to be really pushing for a NAOMI-style renaissance with the RingEdge range of hardware, trying to build a diverse library of games with many NAOMI sequels and remakes (Under Defeat HD, Guilty Gear, Melty Blood, Ge-Sen love) and other popular IP (Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing, Super Monkey Ball, Sega Racing Classic). It felt like there might have been some ulterior motive for this push, some truth to that rumour, but it's probably just my wistful imagination.
     
  20. Trippled

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