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Music Let's write a POLITE letter to Sega about Origins' music

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by nineko, Jun 22, 2022.

  1. FollOw


    The sun sets forever over Black Water Park Oldbie
    I'm sorry if I'm derailing this but it would be super funny if Sega got the message but was really confused on what we wanted so they had Jun just remix the entire Sonic 3 OST same vain as the super sonic song.
  2. Mana


    Good! Great! Awesome! Outstanding! Amazing! Member
    Thanks, I'm not good at checking for Grammar so that was very helpful. The very last change I will make is splitting the sentence about the protoype music into two so it doesn't run on for so long.

  3. nesboy43


    I think saying "we accept" the songs has an air of pretentiousness, took it out in my version if you want to grab anything else from it (posted above).

    I also gave quick criteria for the audio issues instead of only mentioning "quality".
  4. saxman


    Oldbie Tech Member
    As long as a letter doesn't come off as pretentious and arrogant as though Sega owes people something, I don't think there's any harm. But it should be respectful on all counts -- and don't criticize Jun Senoue's efforts. Offer a plus, not a minus. And don't write on behalf of all Sonic fans, because that alone comes off as quite arrogant.

    Below is what I'd say, off the top of my head, representing myself only. And you can feel free to borrow lines from this -- but please coordinate with each other -- for your own letters:


    As a longtime Sonic the Hedgehog fan since 1991, I am looking forward with much anticipation to your latest efforts with the franchise. Sonic Frontiers looks amazing, and Sonic Origins looks to be a worthy addition for any fan's collection both old and new.

    I write this specifically regarding Origins, whose music has recently been unveiled to the public. Having been long associated with many other fans across various Sonic the Hedgehog websites, I know the replacement tracks are revered in large numbers. It is well-established by now that these tracks were prototypes that ultimately went unused.

    I couldn't help but notice some of these sound a little older than those fans have had for the past couple years via a November 1993 prototype that was leaked to the internet. If I had to offer a suggestion -- and I can say with assurance that many others I have talked with concur -- it would be for Origins to use the tracks of this prototype, or even newer versions if they exist. These details don't go unnoticed by the longtime fans, and I think it would only serve to build upon the foundation of goodwill and respect we have for Sega and Sonic Team.

    Regardless, I wish the release to be a success and look forward to many more years playing the blue hedgehog.



    I am not going to send this, but I hope it etches out some ideas for others.
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  5. nesboy43


    I mean you are on a site called Sonic Retro. This is a collection of a large portion of the retro Sonic games. This collection will likely be the versions of Sonic 1, 2, 3, K, and CD carried on in the future. I don't see Sega ever remaking these games again.

    Besides Sonic Jam, Sonic and Knuckles collection (both made 25 years ago in 1997), all releases of S3 and K are roms with emulation, not ports.

    It makes complete sense to me people would want to do what they can to fix any glaring issues. Whether reaching out to Sega will work or not is unknown, but we should definitely try, even if the feedback falls on deaf ears it is worth a chance.
  6. GeneHF


    SEGA-ier than you'll potentially ever be. Site Staff
    Scenic Studiopolis
    Complete Global Conquest
    To set expectations, it does help a social media/community person to have clear and concise feedback to present to higher ups, and it sometimes can help grease some wheels. Once it's in their hands, though, there's not much else that can be done if they go, "We understand, but we do not have the bandwidth for this."

    But in the past, it did help us argue for a Mania physical release (for example.)
  7. _Sidle


    Working on a layout for the letter image (Using this text as a placeholder to get an idea of scale, image shrunken to upload)


    I've never done something quite like this before, so forgive me if it looks like ass. Not sure where to go with it from here, either.
  8. Angel X

    Angel X

    I don't think it's a good idea to use, I've never seen a petition work when it comes to video games.
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  9. Billy


    RIP Oderus Urungus Member
    Colorado, USA
    Indie games
    Going to suggest using less black, for those of us planning on printing it out and snail mailing it to Sega.
  10. Yuzu


    Dark Souls had a PC port petition which got over 90,000 signatures, with Namco Bandai outright acknowledging the petition when it reached 60,000.

    It can work. It's rare, but it's happened.

    For what it's worth, I think using a twitter hashtag and tagging Sega and community reps would be enough.
  11. saxman


    Oldbie Tech Member
    To be honest, I don't think there's anywhere near enough to compete with that. The people who care about the music differences are among a small group.
  12. Brainulator


    Regular garden-variety member Member
    I really don't think this is a worthwhile effort. I haven't looked at the main Sonic Origins thread myself lately enough to add to the monstrous amount of text to read, but I think it's worth putting my 2 cents here, so that things are in an area in which I think is pertinent.

    Listening to the tracks in question - the PC versions (MIDI and FM), the prototype versions, the Sonic 3 Complete versions, and the Origins versions (in admittedly low quality), I really don't think the Origins tracks are so bad that they're worth all the complaining. Granted, there are some decisions I'm not sure I agree with, but it's not anywhere near, say, what Sonic Chronicles did to Sonic 3's final boss theme.

    I feel it should be noted that the prototype versions you all were attached to came from a build where various other tracks had differences. Without more builds, it's hard to say what exactly everything sounded like at some point, but I'd reckon what we have might have been taken from a build in between the 1993-11-03 build and the final. Special - Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (Sega Magazin, February 1994) seems to mention a prototype with some differences, but couldn't give anything away... as of 2008. Regardless, I can't exactly say that I think Casino Night Zone's music was improved between the Simon Wai and August 21 prototypes of Sonic 2, yet the changes were made. And if these tracks are lifted from an older build we don't know of, then are the people working on Origins really able to do anything about this?

    I wish you luck in the petition, but I respectfully wish to withhold my ascent to the same.
  13. McAleeCh


    I mean, there's some compelling evidence in one of the many threads currently discussing this that these are existing recordings of an older version, possibly the same source later used as reference by the folks who transcribed the tracks for Sonic & Knuckles Collection since the key, instrumentation and tempo of the tracks are all close matches for those versions. As well as the fact that Carnival Night 1 and Launch Base 1 are coded in the same key as Origins and have a flag set to transpose them in the proto (suggesting the decision to transpose was taken later), it's been pointed out that Launch Base 1 sounds near identical to Origins if you swap the instrument bank for the default set, suggesting the Origins version had been coded but not assigned unique instruments yet. If you remove two of the PSG channels it matches exactly, strongly suggesting those channels were only added after the versions heard in Origins. Finally, there's the appalling volume balancing issues in Launch Base 2 where the background instruments drown out the melody between around 0:30 and 0:45 - in the prototype these are balanced correctly, again suggesting Origins' versions are older.

    I really think if the Origins team were aware that more finished versions of the tracks exist they'd have used them. Is it possible that someone with the right connections exists in the community who'd be able to make them aware?
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2022
  14. I certainly hope it does - I’m sure a few folks here are relatively close with Stealth, and could probably get Katie’s attention.

    Let’s get a good future, shall we?
  15. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

    size of a tangerine Member
    Just my two cents on this, but I don't think S&K Collection should be mentioned at all. Sega knows the fans know about the prototype, and that's the only thing we should be referencing as a superior alternative. Any mention of the PC midi soundtrack just adds confusion to the issue IMO.
  16. JoseTB


    Tech Member
    I'm a little late to the party but having just now heard the rearrangements in Origins I'd like to add my voice to the petition as well.

    What appears to have happened from what we can infer is that the original demo tapes were recreated verbatim, neglecting a significant amount of editing, mixing, postprocessing and remastering work that was done in the November 1993 prototype.

    I respect the work that went into recreating these for Origins, but there's nothing wrong in acknowledging that more complete versions than the original demo tapes exist, and it's not unreasonable to petition that these be used instead.

    Please SEGA, reconsider, if you are going to replace music the original game shipped with, at very least do so with the best versions of the replacements available.
  17. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    As I said and others also did, there's 99.5% chance they weren't recreated, as the SMPS data of our proto is consistent with the Origins versions. There are instrument changes, volume changes etc, but the actual note data is consistent for most zones. They simply recorded these songs off an earlier build than our proto and that's it.


    There's this post from hidden palace and I think making it go viral is our best bet:

    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
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  18. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    I'd never say something like this. I'd just say "the implementation of the replacement tracks found in Origins", without finger pointing, because "whoever" is already someone, unknown but specific enough, and I'd talk about all those tracks together as they have been released now, not that they were released before.
  19. nineko


    I am the Holy Cat Tech Member
    To be honest, I'm not sure if we should proceed with the letter idea anymore, I opened this topic when the game wasn't released yet, so we could only know that the music was broken, but now? There is a several-page topic with all kinds of bug reports, there is material for at least a dozen of letters, not to mention that we can safely scratch the "we know that Sega put a lot of effort into this thing" part from the letter because honestly, yeah, they didn't, it's hard to write something polite with a straight face at this point, and we can't realistically write "hey Sega, please redo from scratch and let Stealth do his thing".
  20. Harper


    For now, we should probably focus on telling SEGA about those bugs and request patches for the game.
    Edit: Fixed typos