Let's talk about LOOPS

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by OSM, Jul 4, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hanyou

    Hanyou

    Member
    37
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=475504:date=Jul 5 2010, 01:55 PM:name=SilverstepP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverstepP @ Jul 5 2010, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475504">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=475489:date=Jul 5 2010, 01:25 PM:name=Hanyou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hanyou @ Jul 5 2010, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475489">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...I don't remember any after the first level in Sonic Adventure—neither game is too un-Sonic-like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You don't remember Speed Highway's loops? The one in Ice Cap? The ones in Twinkle Park's hovercart section for Sonic? Sonic Adventure 1 had quite a few loops in it.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No, I don't remember any loops in Speed Highway. Ironically, I remember plenty of loops being in its "sequel," Radical Highway, but all I remember from Speed Highway are corkscrews. I'll have to play through it again to see what I missed. As for Twinkle Park's hovercart section, that's fair, but the mechanics are different...and I do seem to remember one in Ice Cap now that you mention it. There was also one in the last act of Windy Valley.

    I also imagine there must have been one or two in Final Egg. That level was crazy. So I stand corrected—but the game still went without loops for the most part, far more than its sequels or recent 2D incarnations.

    Also, I wonder if loops could work with the camera behind Sonic on the condition that they were also sort of "half-piped"--sloped upward at the edges—and that Sonic did not automatically fall off ledges when he hit them, but bounced back unless he jumped (see Okami for an example of this—in order to "fall" from a top ledge down, you have to jump over it). It's hard to describe and I'm not sure I'm doing a good job, but I imagine it could work with a little bit of effort.

    Frankly, I find loops with zoomed-out cameras disorienting enough, and I don't think keeping the camera behind Sonic would be much worse.
     
  2. The Pulse

    The Pulse

    GLUTHAWK, KING OF THE HAWKS Member
    I get confused whenever someone says "THE CAMERA SHOULD NOT BE BEHIND SONIC WHEN HE LOOPS THE 'DE LOOP' BECAUSE IT IS DISORIENTATING" because usually when you go through a loop in real life, the camerais behind your eyes.

    If anything, it would have more impact at showing the speed. Like, "Holy shit the world is upside down because I'm running through a loop"
     
  3. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

    NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev Oldbie
    4,348
    82
    28
    <!--quoteo(post=475594:date=Jul 5 2010, 01:40 PM:name=The Pulse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Pulse @ Jul 5 2010, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475594">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get confused whenever someone says "THE CAMERA SHOULD NOT BE BEHIND SONIC WHEN HE LOOPS THE 'DE LOOP' BECAUSE IT IS DISORIENTATING" because usually when you go through a loop in real life, the camerais behind your eyes.

    If anything, it would have more impact at showing the speed. Like, "Holy shit the world is upside down because I'm running through a loop"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you want to see a loop done with the camera behind the back, look at Sonic CD or Sonic R. Both do loops with the camera behind the back, and it's not very impressive.

    Also you're wrong, real people tend to close their eyes when they go around a loop. It's biological. When you ride a roller coaster and you go through a loop, unless you're forcing them open, your eyes will close about every 45 degrees naturally. This is something people do automatically, it's a side effect due to the way we move our eyes around our head. When we look from one direction to another, we blink during the transition period because leaving our eyes open during this makes us dizzy. We do the same during a loop.
     
  4. Hanyou

    Hanyou

    Member
    37
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=475595:date=Jul 5 2010, 05:43 PM:name=Cooljerk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cooljerk @ Jul 5 2010, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475595">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=475594:date=Jul 5 2010, 01:40 PM:name=The Pulse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Pulse @ Jul 5 2010, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475594">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get confused whenever someone says "THE CAMERA SHOULD NOT BE BEHIND SONIC WHEN HE LOOPS THE 'DE LOOP' BECAUSE IT IS DISORIENTATING" because usually when you go through a loop in real life, the camerais behind your eyes.

    If anything, it would have more impact at showing the speed. Like, "Holy shit the world is upside down because I'm running through a loop"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you want to see a loop done with the camera behind the back, look at Sonic CD or Sonic R. Both do loops with the camera behind the back, and it's not very impressive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I checked Sonic R again—the loop I remember is in the first level—and the camera did not stay consistently behind the player's back. Instead, it did a strange thing where it reversed direction for a moment. I never thought it was too bad, but it uses boost pads of a sort too, even if the player can still direct Sonic. For small loops, that approach could work.

    If you want an example of a stationary camera with loops, check out this level in Diddy Kong Racing:
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AnjkVH98h5o&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AnjkVH98h5o&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    It's pretty much seamless and not in the least bit disorienting. Again, I'd argue it's much less disorienting than having the camera zoom out from the loop entirely. Yes, there's an auto-boost at the start of the loop, but that's pretty much irrelevant to how the camera functions here.

    So it can be done if the camera moves ever so slightly above the player. Barely any drastic changes would need to be made at all.
     
  5. 0r4ng3

    0r4ng3

    Member
    1,318
    0
    0
    There was a fan game that implemented the camera like that. Personally I don't see the point as to me, it takes the whole charm away.
     
  6. Phos

    Phos

    Going for the high score on whatever that little b Member
    3,318
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=475404:date=Jul 5 2010, 03:25 AM:name=Scartillery)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scartillery @ Jul 5 2010, 03:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475404">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=475398:date=Jul 5 2010, 08:57 AM:name=Felik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Felik @ Jul 5 2010, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475398">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not in Sonic 2006. You can walk around an entire loop, and even stop when you're upside down and not drop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Really?


    Sad thing: The only 3D Sonic game where I've seen unautomated loops is fangame "Ashura: Dark Reign."

    Probably loops are automated in official 3D Sonic games because camera is a bitch in them.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah, it is. I've seen an played a couple fan-games with unscripted loops, and the camera follows Sonic all the way around. Its REALLY disorientating.
    I'm guessing they need it to be somewhat scripted in order to keep the camera steady.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It works perfectly fine. Stop making excuses for Sega.
     
  7. The KKM

    The KKM

    Welcome to the nExt level Member
    2,188
    33
    28
    Portugal
    IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog comic books
    What's the fun in a loop where you don't see the loop? That DKR one, for an example. He may as well just have ran through a straight road,
     
  8. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    <!--quoteo(post=475670:date=Jul 5 2010, 08:45 PM:name=The KKM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The KKM @ Jul 5 2010, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475670">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's the fun in a loop where you don't see the loop? That DKR one, for an example. He may as well just have ran through a straight road,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is exactly how I feel.

    Either way, pull what ADR does. Give Sonic control of the momentum in the loop and the direction, but also allow extreme angles at the same time. Like so:
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_v1EpoGkHoY&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_v1EpoGkHoY&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    Except more like at 0:39 and less of the first-person styles shown throughout the video.
     
  9. Phos

    Phos

    Going for the high score on whatever that little b Member
    3,318
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=475607:date=Jul 5 2010, 05:34 PM:name=Hanyou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hanyou @ Jul 5 2010, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475607">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kart Game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    There's your problem. Compare it to a game that doesn't have an absurdly low top speed:
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/__ie085Jv9U&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/__ie085Jv9U&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
     
  10. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
    5,090
    234
    43
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    <!--quoteo(post=475688:date=Jul 6 2010, 03:39 AM:name=Phos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Phos @ Jul 6 2010, 03:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475688">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's your problem. Compare it to a game that doesn't have an absurdly low top speed:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The thing is, that still doesn't look too good. It still feels like you're just going in a straight line. The loop's more noticeable, but not by much.

    I think a mixture of camera angles would work best, which is the way it's done in most 3D Sonic games. Having the camera behind Sonic means the loop loses its... loopiness. If the camera angles shown in that Ashura: Dark Reign video were applied to one loop each, you get the full impact of having gone round a loop, without it getting boring too quickly.

    Going around any other kind of pathway, e.g. corkscrews, definitely SHOULD be kept with the camera behind Sonic. Left/right movement is much more noticeable than forward/backward movement with a "chase" camera, so you'll get the full effect. Case in point:

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JpYzabGEAo8&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JpYzabGEAo8&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    [/obligatory Rollcage video]

    Also, I agree that this topic should be split.
     
  11. 0r4ng3

    0r4ng3

    Member
    1,318
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=475673:date=Jul 6 2010, 02:51 AM:name=Azukara)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azukara @ Jul 6 2010, 02:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475673">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=475670:date=Jul 5 2010, 08:45 PM:name=The KKM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The KKM @ Jul 5 2010, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475670">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's the fun in a loop where you don't see the loop? That DKR one, for an example. He may as well just have ran through a straight road,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is exactly how I feel.

    Either way, pull what ADR does. Give Sonic control of the momentum in the loop and the direction, but also allow extreme angles at the same time. Like so:
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_v1EpoGkHoY&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_v1EpoGkHoY&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    Except more like at 0:39 and less of the first-person styles shown throughout the video.

    Btw, should we split this into a thread about loops? :v:
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The camera at 1:15 reminds me of close to every loop in Green Forest. The following behind was also done once, it follows Sonic's backs but it twists halfway through (like 0:58) so it looks more cinematic.

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG3sFkLuQCU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG3sFkLuQCU</a> (2:15 for the following behind kind of camera)

    White jungle and Pyramid Cave have some examples as well of both. Too bad the loops were scripted past a certain point. You could still bypass them if you jumped at some points, such as Metal Harbor's first. Still if you jumped at the top, you'd surelly die.

    That said, being scripted or unscripted when they just stand there as decoration and have no input on gameplay is the same.
     
  12. Solaris Paradox

    Solaris Paradox

    Member
    2,456
    0
    0
    On my butt in front of the computer. Where else?
    I'm working on working up the willpower to work on learning how to make my own Sonic fangames. Not quite there yet.
    Not that this whole loop conversation is really on-topic much, but I do personally much prefer it when loops actually do "assist" Sonic's direction. Probably because in the few times I've dabbled in 3D fangame engines, it was always the freely-controlled loops that gave me the most grief.

    I do with they'd quit litering them with boostpads, though. I can't imagine it'd really be THAT terribly hard to program the game in order to prevent any unwanted side-effects from occuring when the player falls off a loop.

    As for practical gameplay applications, they do exist mostly to show off the physics engine, but they also act as a standard "obstacle" in Sonic gameplay, of a sort—in the momentum-based retro titles, due to the way Sonic moves, slope formations in the ground provide their own contribution to the gameplay, and loops are about as standard as that element ever gets. Granted, this isn't always a deep or even vaguely challenging contribution, but it's there and it does its job, sometimes in fairly interesting ways.
     
  13. I would think the controls for running around a loop would be a little confusing if it wasn't scripted. The way it is now, all you have to do is hold forward, just like you had to hold right/left in the past.

    They should get rid of the dash panels, though. I miss actually having to go back and gain speed (or spin dash) to actually get through a loop. I also wish they would find somewhat more realistic places to put them (if such a thing exists). I mean, do they really expect vehicles to be able to drive along Radical Highway? How would they even get to it (which also brings the question of how Rouge and Tails get to where they are on their driving levels in SA2, since if you go backwards you discover that the highway is a dead end in the middle of the ocean) to drive on it, given that most of it is suspended in midair several hundred feet above the previous section of road?

    But enough of the realism ranting, I don't really care about that. Perhaps we should try and get away from the loop discussion now? It's hardly related to Colours.
     
  14. Sith

    Sith

    The molotov bitch Member
    <!--quoteo(post=475523:date=Jul 5 2010, 08:24 PM:name=SilverstepP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverstepP @ Jul 5 2010, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475523">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens to the momentum when you release the joystick? You just stop immediately, and fall down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Umm yes, that's the idea. When you cross a gap doing a homing attack on baddies, you're not going to stop using it do you, knowing otherwise you fall to oblivion?

    A monkey can cross these 'prescripted' loops, they're just for show and feel uninvolving.
    Wipeout Fusion did it right and so did F-Zero but the problem with Sonic is that it has gravity physics unlike those racing titles where you stick to the track.

    I suppose they could stick little walls on the looped track or make the path wide. Maybe throw in some speed shoes prior to taking it. I don't know...

    I just find this prescipted shit redundant. If you can't take the loop yourself, better just drop it imo. I just hate 'autopilot'-Sonic.
     
  15. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    How about they just take control of where you are placed in the loop (like, they stick you to dead center), but you control if you go forward or backward, and your speed in the loop? Wouldn't that allow these cinematic scenes without taking all control of the game away?
     
  16. <!--quoteo(post=475905:date=Jul 6 2010, 09:34 PM:name=Sith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sith @ Jul 6 2010, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475905">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=475523:date=Jul 5 2010, 08:24 PM:name=SilverstepP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverstepP @ Jul 5 2010, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475523">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens to the momentum when you release the joystick? You just stop immediately, and fall down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Umm yes, that's the idea. When you cross a gap doing a homing attack on baddies, you're not going to stop using it do you, knowing otherwise you fall to oblivion?

    A monkey can cross these 'prescripted' loops, they're just for show and feel uninvolving.
    Wipeout Fusion did it right and so did F-Zero but the problem with Sonic is that it has gravity physics unlike those racing titles where you stick to the track.

    I suppose they could stick little walls on the looped track or make the path wide. Maybe throw in some speed shoes prior to taking it. I don't know...

    I just find this prescipted shit redundant. If you can't take the loop yourself, better just drop it imo. I just hate 'autopilot'-Sonic.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I had an idea about that.

    Loops should have a minimum speed/momentum requirement before you can pass. SO if you're too slow, you slide or fall back down.
    However, to make sure people stay on the loop as intended, make the loop "on-rails". There is still the requirement of having momentum, but the "On-rails" means you don't end up going past the loop boundary. This would also prevent people running through the loop instead of going around it...if you see what I mean.
    Same would apply to corkscrews. You need momentum to get through it, but its on-rails so you don't fly off the track.

    I wonder it what I posted makes any sense.
    It works in my head, but its hard to explain.

    Um..I guess you could say, you're locked onto the track, so you can move sideways half-way through the loop.
    However, you can still fall down, if you don't have enough momentum.

    Goddamn it, if only there was a way I could show you what I mean.
    If any body else knows what I mean, but have a better way of explaining it, please do.
     
  17. Dude

    Dude

    Tech Member
    3,138
    0
    16
    Southbridge, MA
    Random VR/AR trash
    Alright, here's how and why loops are they way they are in sonic adventure, and why they should always be that way:

    1. Sonic Adventure controls like a standard 3d platformer, where the controls are relative to the camera, which is why FPS style controls don't work (see: fangames). Now, most platform games use the 'behind the back' camera that everyone constantly complains about not having. This works fine for most platform games but, if you take a game like this and speed it up, you can't feel/don't notice the speed because everything is in relative stasis. The camera is always x units behind the player, and thusly in y position to the world.

    2. Sonic is about well-thought out, momentum-based platforming with the illusion of speed. If you haven't noticed yet, actual speed in most video games, when raised to significantly high levels, becomes unplayable in every game without exception. Since the player's perception of speed is how fast the view changes, we need to create a speedy feeling without making sonic move at unrealistic speeds. This is accomplished by applying various controls over, you guessed it, the camera because it is the highest level of view-based control.

    3. As in number 2 we're trying to make sonic seem fast while still keeping him within standard platforming relativistic speeds, we'll need to be constantly doing something with the camera. If you've ever played any 3d racing game with loops, you'll notice that its hard to know when you're in one if you're concentrating on your character because the track, the character, and the camera are all in the same screen locations. We fix this problem by moving the camera to a point where we can see sonic, pull out the FOV a little, and lock onto sonic. The focal point moves in a loop, the camera origin has moved, and we're pulling FOV out. This is 3 different forms of relativistic motion. However, this leads to a new problem

    4. As the controls are relative to the camera, our previous camera trickery is going to make things hard to handle for most players. To fix this problem, the game has to do a little bit of work for us. Now in sonic adventure, the game doesn't change physics sets or hardcode anything, it just guides sonic through the loop. If you don't have enough speed you still fall out, and if you jump you still exit the loop as well. This is the way things are supposed to be done, but this requires more work than the heroes/06 implementation where the loop just works, which is why the naka-deprived sonic team does it this way.


    And this is why 'behind the back, full control loops' aren't viable gameplay mechanics in a 3d sonic game.
     
  18. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    The flaw with that though is that in SA1, you still don't necessarily control Sonic's speed in the loop. Sure, you hold the stick and he goes and if you don't he stops; but he constantly has a set speed when in movement, which makes the motion jerky and there not being any challenge in maneuvering the loop other than "hold forward".

    If they could give it the same treatment as Unleashed does with 2.5D areas (set Sonic to a forward/backward path only), Sonic can control his speed perfectly and have cinematic scenarios, if this makes any sense.
     
  19. Dude

    Dude

    Tech Member
    3,138
    0
    16
    Southbridge, MA
    Random VR/AR trash
    <!--quoteo(post=475917:date=Jul 6 2010, 05:02 PM:name=Azukara)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azukara @ Jul 6 2010, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475917">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flaw with that though is that in SA1, you still don't necessarily control Sonic's speed in the loop. Sure, you hold the stick and he goes and if you don't he stops; but he constantly has a set speed when in movement, which makes the motion jerky and there not being any challenge in maneuvering the loop other than "hold forward".

    If they could give it the same treatment as Unleashed does (set Sonic to a forward/backward path only), Sonic can control his speed perfectly and have cinematic scenarios, if this makes any sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well you don't move at a set speed until the paths kick in, and if you're moving faster than the set speed you don't get slowed down, so no its not always a constant speed. And there really doesn't need to be much more challenge than that. If you wanted to make it more challenging, just delete x number of entrance points and make the camera delay in panning out so you have to meet entrance speed requirements first. The sonic adventure system really can't be beat, although I suppose using some really complicated math you could add abit of 'loop tolerance' which lets you stray off the loop path by 3 or 4 units, inviting the player to mess up and add some challenge. But that seems kinda cheap.
     
  20. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    I'm just saying that when the paths kick in it shoots you instantly to a high speed (not saying it's always the same speed), but that sort of takes the point in the loop out. Loops are to be obstacles that require gaining speed to go across. If the loop gives you the speed (it being either with dashpads or not), it makes it useless and nothing more than eye candy.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.