Let's talk about LOOPS

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by OSM, Jul 4, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. OSM

    OSM

    retro is for losers! Member
    4,156
    0
    0
    Doing absolutely nothing
    <!--quoteo(post=475098:date=Jul 4 2010, 07:24 AM:name=Sonic Hachelle-Bee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonic Hachelle-Bee @ Jul 4 2010, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475098">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Besides of that, I'm not too excited by this game. The player was clearly annoyed, rarely pushing any button, watching Sonic going extra-fast through scripted ramps and loops<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    God dammit, I thought they were going to stop this shit.
     
  2. Dude

    Dude

    Tech Member
    3,138
    0
    16
    Southbridge, MA
    Random VR/AR trash
    <!--quoteo(post=475153:date=Jul 4 2010, 11:05 AM:name=OSM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OSM @ Jul 4 2010, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475153">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=475098:date=Jul 4 2010, 07:24 AM:name=Sonic Hachelle-Bee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonic Hachelle-Bee @ Jul 4 2010, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475098">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Besides of that, I'm not too excited by this game. The player was clearly annoyed, rarely pushing any button, watching Sonic going extra-fast through scripted ramps and loops<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    God dammit, I thought they were going to stop this shit.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    hahahaha, there will never be any more sonic games, just really fast movies that you can fuck up by pressing stuff on the controller.
     
  3. Lanzer

    Lanzer

    The saber calls for its master... Member
    6,845
    3
    18
    Glendale, AZ
    Living life.
    <!--quoteo(post=475153:date=Jul 4 2010, 08:05 AM:name=OSM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OSM @ Jul 4 2010, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475153">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=475098:date=Jul 4 2010, 07:24 AM:name=Sonic Hachelle-Bee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonic Hachelle-Bee @ Jul 4 2010, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475098">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Besides of that, I'm not too excited by this game. The player was clearly annoyed, rarely pushing any button, watching Sonic going extra-fast through scripted ramps and loops<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    God dammit, I thought they were going to stop this shit.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Wasn't unleashed's loops scripted too?

    At least I'd rather have scripted then un-scripted and have them forget little glitches like this:
    [​IMG]
     
  4. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
    5,043
    202
    43
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    <!--quoteo(post=475194:date=Jul 4 2010, 06:32 PM:name=Lanzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lanzer @ Jul 4 2010, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475194">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wasn't unleashed's loops scripted too?

    At least I'd rather have scripted then un-scripted and have them forget little glitches like this:
    [​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The very first loop you encounter in Unleashed is scripted, but I believe there are loops that are unscripted later on in the game. As for that glitch; I think that's because the loop is supposed to be scripted, and you're standing still along the scripted path - note you can't move left or right on the loop, only forwards and backwards.
     
  5. Rosie

    Rosie

    aka Rosie Member
    Scripted loops may well be 'easier' to implement, but they're a multimillion dollar company, they have the resources to do pretty much anything, especially with their mascot character. It would be easier for them to sell pieces of paper with "Go make the fucking game yourself!" on them. Non scripted loops were originally going to be in SA1, but I expect taken out due to the miniscule amount of time it would take a team of programmers to actually make them work.

    That aside, I'd rather dodgy physics than having Shadow in there, at least getting the tone right would be one step in the right direction.
     
  6. Dude

    Dude

    Tech Member
    3,138
    0
    16
    Southbridge, MA
    Random VR/AR trash
    The loops were scripted in sadx because of the camera angles associated with them. They're not actually scripted though, they're 'guided'. All of the game's regular physics are still in effect and nothing is changed, the game just inputs the correct control data for you. In fact, you can even go through them backwards. This is because the controls are relative to the camera, making them hard to do if the camera isn't directly behind sonic. But if the camera was directly behind sonic for the loop, alot of the illusion of speed is lost, thereby making them useless in the design.
     
  7. Solaris Paradox

    Solaris Paradox

    Member
    2,456
    0
    0
    On my butt in front of the computer. Where else?
    I'm working on working up the willpower to work on learning how to make my own Sonic fangames. Not quite there yet.
    <!--quoteo(post=475222:date=Jul 4 2010, 02:43 PM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ Jul 4 2010, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475222">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The very first loop you encounter in Unleashed is scripted, but I believe there are loops that are unscripted later on in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The majority of Unleashed's loops aren't actually scripted in the same sense as the loops in previous 3D games, but this is mainly because the majority of Unleashed's loops appear in the 2.5D segments of the game. There are only two loops I can think of offhand that appear in 3D sections—the first loop in Windmill Isle Act 1, and the first loop in Skyscraper Scamper Act 1.

    Some of the 2.5D loops actually do force you into a run to get through them—as in, not via dash pads, Sonic just rips the controller out of your hand and does the running for you. Even when they're not scripted, though, they're all so flooded with dash pads that you'll only ever notice when you deliberately stop to check whether or not the physics work properly. The dash pads are somewhat forgivable in this instance, I feel—falling off the loop has a tendency to glitch the game out.
     
  8. Effexor

    Effexor

    JUSTICE Member
    554
    0
    16
    How about this. Loops are meant to look nice and show Sonic's speed. What does it matter if a loop is scripted or not? If they weren't there, it wouldn't change anything. Name one time where a loop was absolutely necessary.
     
  9. I thought the three-fourths version used in Hilltop Zone were pretty necessary to transfer momentum downward to the breakable rocks and enter the caves.
     
  10. Guess Who

    Guess Who

    It's a miracle! Oldbie
    4,286
    45
    28
    Oregon
    lol
    <!--quoteo(post=475315:date=Jul 4 2010, 07:39 PM:name=Effexor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Effexor @ Jul 4 2010, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475315">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about this. Loops are meant to look nice and show Sonic's speed. What does it matter if a loop is scripted or not? If they weren't there, it wouldn't change anything. Name one time where a loop was absolutely necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Clearly you don't understand that loops were intended as an extremely difficult obstacle that required you to use PINBALL PHYSICS to build up MOMENTUM, a trait lost in 3D games such as Colors because the Orwellian dictators at Sonic Team use their tyrannical power to force you through loops via dash pads.
     
  11. Not in Sonic 2006. You can walk around an entire loop, and even stop when you're upside down and not drop.
     
  12. Felik

    Felik

    Member
    1,706
    0
    16
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not in Sonic 2006. You can walk around an entire loop, and even stop when you're upside down and not drop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Really?


    Sad thing: The only 3D Sonic game where I've seen unautomated loops is fangame "Ashura: Dark Reign."

    Probably loops are automated in official 3D Sonic games because camera is a bitch in them.
     
  13. <!--quoteo(post=475398:date=Jul 5 2010, 08:57 AM:name=Felik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Felik @ Jul 5 2010, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475398">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not in Sonic 2006. You can walk around an entire loop, and even stop when you're upside down and not drop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Really?


    Sad thing: The only 3D Sonic game where I've seen unautomated loops is fangame "Ashura: Dark Reign."

    Probably loops are automated in official 3D Sonic games because camera is a bitch in them.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah, it is. I've seen an played a couple fan-games with unscripted loops, and the camera follows Sonic all the way around. Its REALLY disorientating.
    I'm guessing they need it to be somewhat scripted in order to keep the camera steady.
     
  14. Hanyou

    Hanyou

    Member
    37
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=475349:date=Jul 4 2010, 11:29 PM:name=Guess Who)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Guess Who @ Jul 4 2010, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475349">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clearly you don't understand that loops were intended as an extremely difficult obstacle that required you to use PINBALL PHYSICS to build up MOMENTUM, a trait lost in 3D games such as Colors because the Orwellian dictators at Sonic Team use their tyrannical power to force you through loops via dash pads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    To be fair, that kind of stopped being the case with Sonic 2. Being able to rev-up before a loop tends to take away its "obstacle" quality and make it rather arbitrary.

    I can pinpoint a number of times loops actually acted as an obstacle in the first Sonic the Hedgehog, but subsequently, the only times they were really difficult was when there was an unrelated obstacle (a breakable wall, for example) attached to them. Loops lost much of their relevance fairly quickly.

    With that said, I still prefer not to be boosted through a loop. If you're going to implement one at all, leave it up to the gamer to get through it. In 3D games, it may be better to simply do away with the loops, for reasons previously stated: primarily making the gamer go through the loops without the camera zooming out can be unduly disorienting.
     
  15. <!--quoteo(post=475457:date=Jul 5 2010, 03:31 PM:name=Hanyou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hanyou @ Jul 5 2010, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475457">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=475349:date=Jul 4 2010, 11:29 PM:name=Guess Who)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Guess Who @ Jul 4 2010, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475349">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clearly you don't understand that loops were intended as an extremely difficult obstacle that required you to use PINBALL PHYSICS to build up MOMENTUM, a trait lost in 3D games such as Colors because the Orwellian dictators at Sonic Team use their tyrannical power to force you through loops via dash pads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    To be fair, that kind of stopped being the case with Sonic 2. Being able to rev-up before a loop tends to take away its "obstacle" quality and make it rather arbitrary.

    I can pinpoint a number of times loops actually acted as an obstacle in the first Sonic the Hedgehog, but subsequently, the only times they were really difficult was when there was an unrelated obstacle (a breakable wall, for example) attached to them. Loops lost much of their relevance fairly quickly.

    With that said, I still prefer not to be boosted through a loop. If you're going to implement one at all, leave it up to the gamer to get through it. In 3D games, it may be better to simply do away with the loops, for reasons previously stated: primarily making the gamer go through the loops without the camera zooming out can be unduly disorienting.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You can't do that!
    Most people immediately associate Sonic with loop-de-loops in gaming. They may have lost their relevance, but that doesn't mean they can stop looking cool.
    I like some of the scripted ramps and loops in the 3D games, because on the occasion, they can look quite cool.
     
  16. Hanyou

    Hanyou

    Member
    37
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=475458:date=Jul 5 2010, 10:39 AM:name=Scartillery)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scartillery @ Jul 5 2010, 10:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475458">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't do that!
    Most people immediately associate Sonic with loop-de-loops in gaming. They may have lost their relevance, but that doesn't mean they can stop looking cool.
    I like some of the scripted ramps and loops in the 3D games, because on the occasion, they can look quite cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, if they're going to add them, they should limit them, at the very least. Perhaps they could restrict the loops to 2D areas to increase their effectiveness.

    Mind you, even if they're "arbitrary" at this point, I still think loops can be utilized well in 2D games (Sonic 3 and Knuckles has a few examples, especially in Marble Garden Zone) and I wouldn't want to get rid of them altogether. But for the 3D games...it would be nice if they could just figure out how to make the loops actually affect the level design at large.

    Ironically, there were very few loops in the first Sonic the Hedgehog and I don't remember any after the first level in Sonic Adventure—neither game is too un-Sonic-like.
     
  17. SilverstepP

    SilverstepP

    Now with twice the sprites. Member
    74
    0
    0
    North Carolina
    STILL trying to get these damn spam bots off the Open Sonic forum.
    <!--quoteo(post=475489:date=Jul 5 2010, 01:25 PM:name=Hanyou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hanyou @ Jul 5 2010, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475489">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...I don't remember any after the first level in Sonic Adventure—neither game is too un-Sonic-like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You don't remember Speed Highway's loops? The one in Ice Cap? The ones in Twinkle Park's hovercart section for Sonic? Sonic Adventure 1 had quite a few loops in it.

    The first Sonic Adventure did well with keeping the focus off sheer speed, however. There wasn't a massive amount of loops in it. It doesn't distract a person as much as some of the more recent games do.
     
  18. Sith

    Sith

    The molotov bitch Member
    Loops should be without dash pads, with the camera behind Sonic. Those sidecam loops are pointless and just for show.
    When you have insufficient momentum, you fall down.

    To avoid disorientation, the loop should have a wide enough radius.
     
  19. <!--quoteo(post=475513:date=Jul 5 2010, 07:11 PM:name=Sith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sith @ Jul 5 2010, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475513">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Loops should be without dash pads, with the camera behind Sonic. Those sidecam loops are pointless and just for show.
    When you have insufficient momentum, you fall down.

    To avoid disorientation, the loop should have a wide enough radius.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No...just no. Having the camera behind Sonic during the loop just doesn't look, or feel right.
    I think its best to have the camera angle shift so you can see where you are on the loop. The controls can also remain the same, to avoid confusion. Momentum can be used for loops, but it would take some fine-tuning to get the camera right.
     
  20. SilverstepP

    SilverstepP

    Now with twice the sprites. Member
    74
    0
    0
    North Carolina
    STILL trying to get these damn spam bots off the Open Sonic forum.
    <!--quoteo(post=475513:date=Jul 5 2010, 02:11 PM:name=Sith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sith @ Jul 5 2010, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=475513">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Loops should be without dash pads, with the camera behind Sonic. Those sidecam loops are pointless and just for show.
    When you have insufficient momentum, you fall down.

    To avoid disorientation, the loop should have a wide enough radius.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You know, I hate to bring this headache up... but...

    Shadow the Hedgehog ALMOST did this right. There's one loop in particular in Glyphic Canyon without any dash panels (The one where there's a fork in the path with one leading up a ledge to the loop, and the other going down) and no scripts propelling you through it.

    Again, however, I said ALMOST. What happens to the momentum when you release the joystick? You just stop immediately, and fall down.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.