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KingK's 60-Minute Sonic 06 Video Retrospective

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Sonic5993, Oct 18, 2022.

  1. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    It's just a guess. Usually when a game needs to be delayed for polishing it takes what, 1 to 3 months? 06 was released in a state it needed way more than polishing. The game was broken. God only knows how much time would they need to fix everything.
     
  2. charcoal

    charcoal

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    Have you not played the latest demo yet? To me it feels like absolutely none of the things that you said in this post actually apply to the game. I'm not trying to be snarky or an asshole or anything I'm just genuinely confused by the points you're making here
     
  3. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    No, I think what he's saying checks out about the current version. I really commend ChaosX for giving it his all and putting a ton of work into making 06 playable, but 06 is just built on such bad ideas that the best versions of those ideas are still kind of lame. I'd give the game more credit than Azoo is here, but it's still a recreation of 06, which is constructed out of poor concepts.
     
  4. Azookara

    Azookara

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    What? I've played the most recent version of P-06. In fact, I've kept up with all versions up to this point.

    The character models still have their gangly proportions, puppet mouths and glass eyes. The game is still littered in dash pads and automation with no faith in the game's physics engine to at least do some of the work. Movement is smoother than vanilla 06 but it's still clunky; that constant stop-start feeling remains. Mach speed areas are still just as unplayable as they were in the original. You still carry Elise in Dusty Desert and Tropical Jungle, which is not only an eyesore (lol) but reduces mobility and removes the Spindash, making the levels really dull to play. Still full of in-game dialogue and character swapping galore to slow down or irritate the player. All this and the three feet deep water in Wave Ocean still insta-kills you.

    That's everything I said and then some, right? And pretty much all of those annoyances and grievances are in an attempt to replicate the original 1:1, which only proves my point that there's a lot "off" about this game in the design itself. Speaking of, IIRC he's porting the cutscenes in too eventually. They're the same as base game, just visually remastered. So that means the plot sticks along too. As well as all those bobblehead mocap performances. Eesh.

    Now I'm not gonna say that he didn't improve things, because I wanna give credit where it's due. Some of the character animations are improved, and the fact that they lean while running looks good. Spindashing works as it should and jumping is far more reliable (plus it's an attack). Gems function as they should, combat is smoother/quicker, and stages look much better than in vanilla. Silver's new moves and tweaks are def improvements. The game doesn't bug out, lag or crash and loading times don't kill the flow. The extra cutscenes before Crisis City and Kingdom Valley that give greater use for those voice clips is a nice idea, and reworking the ball in Aquatic Base was good. It's definitely got big, efforted strides up.

    It's a far more functional game with legitimate QoL improvements, for sure. I just don't think it makes the game "good" to me, or at least good enough. 06 just kinda remains as a clunky, annoying, weird and ugly game with an awful story... just without the parts where it's broken. It's kinda fun, but with too many caveats to say it holds up when polished, and seemingly far more on the way with incoming cutscenes and hubs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2022
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  5. shilz

    shilz

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    I prefer my beach level instadeath pits to have invisible walls you can jump over into a very sudden dropoff into the depths of the ocean thank you very much
     
  6. For what its worth, ChaosX's stated goal wasn't to make 06 "good" but to just make it in the way it was envisioned. He just wanted to finish the game just to see what it could have been like had it been given more time to cook.

    That's completely different from if its a good game or not. Whether 06 is a good game or "fundamentally flawed" varies but I do think it's important to keep in mind the creator's goal in making it.

    If people wanna use it to champion the agenda of "See, 06 is good, suck it haters" versus just seeing a souped up version of a bad game, by all means.



    For what it is though completely divorced from if its a good game or not, its an incredible effort all of the same in what he was able to accomplish.
     
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  7. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    And I think it brought a breath of fresh air in the discutions surrounding 06, because we can legitimately talk about the game's shortcomings and strong points divorced from the whole "unfinished, broken buggy mess" aspect of it all.

    There's quite a few posts here saying 06 ultimately still sucks, even after after it's been "fixed". And it's a very fair opinion to have!
    Personally, I think P-06 is nothing short of brilliant and one of the best Sonic game ever, official or not.

    But I think the fact that we can have this conversation shows that the project ultimately succeed, because no one in their right mind would call vanilla 06 "one of the best Sonic game ever", it was always "well if they did this and this and this, then the game would totally be good guys!!1!".
    I was guilty of doing it too, maybe because I was so despaired seeing the series straying so far from what made me love it in the first place, I felt like I had to defend the last bastion of the Adventure era.
    But...every bad game can be a decent game if you fix what's wrong with it :V, which kinda led to the debates going in circles.
    "-Sonic 06 sucks!
    -it's true, but..."
    With P-06, we can have actual debates about the quality of the game, which I think we'll all agree is more interesting than a bunch of "what-ifs".


    Now, about the actual video this thread is about...I haven't watched it :p, I simply don't have the time to watch hours long video essays on youtube anymore.

    The only thing I'll say is that perhaps if we Adventure kids didn't get insulted and bullied for YEARS online for simply liking the games we like, we wouldn't feel the need to make videos like this defending said games.
    Sure, they're very little academic substance to them, and calling them essay might be a bit too much, but...we kinda need to?

    Literally one of the first post in this very thread is someone saying we just have bad standards liking these clearly bad games; and we're the reason the series is so mediocre, we just can't see it.
    I'm paraphrasing here, but...yeah. Reading this drivel literally gave me ptsd to my early years online as a young Sonic fan and almost made me mute the whole topic out of a knee-jerk reaction lol

    Back then, it wasn't enough to simply like these games, and these people made damn sure we knew their feelings on the matter.
    So here we have the consequences, a few decades later...the kids have grown up and are now making hours long videos defending the games, passing them as "essays" to try and give them some kind of objective value.
    Because that's what happens when something you identify with gets dragged through the dirt for years upon years, what are the odds? Now, they have to PROVE these games are actually good!

    I can't blame them really, although personally I just tuned out of these conversations years ago and just enjoy the games I like, and do my best to express my wishes for the series to be more like the games I like in an healthy fashion.


    ...maybe I'm overthinking it, who knows. But methink all these pro Adventure-era essays that popped up in these last few years didn't just fall outta the sky, and are kinda the consequences of the actions of a select few people a few decades ago :V
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2022
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  8. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    Bro just inspired a new all-time favorite shitpost of mine

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Someone screwed up the posting.


    Eh, I'm over the point of feeling like I need to defend the Adventure games. I love them to death, but they are flawed games.

    I don't need a bunch curmudgeon telling me my opinions are wrong tho. I like what I like.

    And I'm tired of Adventure fans constantly waxing philosophically about them. Feels everyone is saying the same thing at this point.
     
  10. shilz

    shilz

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    The dream's probably more to be heard than anything. Only you never actually feel heard, no matter how loud you scream. Repeated comments from people who still don't see it even when you've tried your best to explain it just affirm feelings of isolation. By the time you scream loud enough to be heard, some form of frustration is likely to have settled in and it gets paired up with everything else because it's not even multiple different thoughts anymore. It's all the same long, drawn out thought. No argument, no conclusion, just you aimlessly explaining years and years of personal facts.

    King K's video is far beyond being a review, analysis, essay, or even a form of entertainment. Any resemblance to those is a formality. It's simply an expression. Those who've been there get it, and it's cathartic, those who don't are kinda left in the dust and confused. But that's just trying to explain anything personally important to someone. You'll have a hard time defining the feelings evoked by comfort food with hard facts. Is it the memory, or the taste, or the preparation of the food that makes it important? Who cares. It's important to someone.

    That's why I've stopped trying to define anything as truly bad. There's no argument in this world that will change every single person's views on something, and if the only purpose of the label is to shift whether or not someone may choose to interact with it, why label something in such a heartless way like that? Why take away chances for art to do what art does?
     
  11. The KKM

    The KKM

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    presumably the most important role of project 06 is simply that having a near perfect port of 06 in pc with QoL improvements will then make it easy for the community to take it to the next step and start modding it, which is where we might start getting actual fixes to the game
     
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  12. Wraith

    Wraith

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    The shadow video was nonsense but I decided to bite on this anyway and I'm surprised he's managed to top himself. Every new attempt to rehabilitate Sonic 06 squeezes in more and more falsehoods. Kingk managed to top them all by pretending nobody wanted to give Unleashed a chance or praised it's strong suits when that's the entire reason we have five boost games to begin with. It was praised so much it replaced the spindash as Sonic's main gimmick. We couldn't get rid of the shit of we wanted to.

    That's just the most egregious example. I can hardly stand his videos these days because of how much shit he manages to slip in without any of it being challenged.

    How much of this video is about the actual game and not internet arguments he got into as a teenager? How much of it is about Sonic 06 as a product that was sold to costumers based on lies and not the version Sonic fans imagine it could have been in their heads?

    It's completely reasonable to suggest that if Sonic team can't handle alternate playable characters, complex plotlines and voicework in their game that they should cut those features. It's not on the consumer to 'be fair' and imagine a game that does all those things correctly. It's on Sonic Team to prove they can handle those things and Imo it you ask me 15 years later they still haven't.

    Pretending harsh reactions to Dreamcast sonic are why we have modern Sonic takes all agency away from Sonic Team as the actual reason why 3D Sonic has been so lackluster. All they really need to do is stop making shitty games, but all the fanbase wants to do is point the finger at everyone else. It's the critic's fault. It's the classic fans fault. It's modern fans's fault. It never ends. All this meta discussion drives me up the wall.


    This video sucks. I'm tired of nostalgia clouded vent sessions being floated as genuine critique. I'm tired of people who only engage with Sonic GAMES as a means to an end to engage with the characters trying to weigh in on which games are better. There's a lot of talk of bias against Sonic but not nearly enough of the bias for Sonic and the way it grants garbage like 06 grace it doesn't deserve
     
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  13. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    The Japanese voice acting was fine tho. No reason to cut it. It's not like the dub is mandatory to begin with.
     
  14. Lurker

    Lurker

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    Ah Sonic 06, or as I used to call it before it was released Sonic Adventure 3. The first Sonic game I never bought. Not because people said it was a buggy mess but because it looked like more of the same. I remember just wanting to play something new.

    Then we got Sonic Unleashed and I(like a few others here) completely disagree with KingK. I remember lots of people being hyped for it. It was new, refreshing, fast and it looked beautiful. It wasn't perfect(thanks werewolf) but was reused in Sonic Generation where it was improved upon. Was it better then the Adventure series? Maybe, maybe not(depends on whom you'll ask), but you need to keep innovating or else it gets stale and SEGA at least had the ba**s to try...
     
  15. Think you're missing the point of the statement. If something is too much work to handle, then you shouldn't keep trying (and failing) simply because you're going to make a few people upset by doing so. A lot of people cite that Sonic Team should keep trying to push for bigger and better narratives and that's fine, but if they're not capable doing so in a satisfactory manner...at what point is it ok to throw in the towel? What if you don't give a fuck about Sonic stories, yet they insist on focusing them anyway to detriment of the GAME?

    Just like its reasonable for people who value Sonic's narrative over the gameplay to be upset when they neglect the former, it's just as reasonable for people to be mad when the GAME part of the video game isn't up to par. Its probably even more reasonable because, and to be completely blunt here, only Sonic fans give a fuck about Sonic stories, but everyone is going to care about the gameplay unless you're the specific subset of Sonic fans who are fine with whatever type of gameplay you get so as long as you get to see your favorite characters.

    So yea, I think people like Wraith have more than a right to be pissed off when Sonic fans prioritize things like narrative, story, or if their favorite characters are present over the game actually being functional to play, and start lamenting when people trash games like 06 despite the game being functionally broken, and start citing a (very well made I might add) fan mod as a way to show "the game was good actually". Its frustrating for someone who just wants to play an actual game with well crafted gameplay, yet fan's idea of a "good game" is if Sonic & Shadow go Super Saiyan and fight some eldritch god, gameplay be damned.
     
  16. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I was just referring to the part about how Sonic Team supposedly couldn't handle voice work so it should be cut.

    The Japanese voice acting was fine in my book so I see no reason to cut all voice acting from the games. The game's English dub might have been questionable, but it wasn't the original to being with, but a localization.
     
  17. Yea and I'm saying that wasn't the point of the statement.
     
  18. Starduster

    Starduster

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    As someone with no horse in this race, it's a bit of a buggerance. I was interested by and investing in KingK's building up of 06 in spite of the flaws he acknowledges, and I do think P-06 can serve as a good reference point both of what people like about the original in a more technically competent package and of something resembling what 06 was intended to be for the sake of a discussion on the game's inherent merits that is less compromised by the need to navigate around those merits being disserviced by the game's poor technical execution. In that sense, I certainly think this video has value and there's absolutely a place for this kind of apologism, when employed with a healthy amount of restraint.

    However, going after Unleashed (a game I have also not played) and Colours for the crime of recognising that 06 didn't work and introducing a formula that helped bring respect back to the series? Damning Frontiers before it's even out and overall just suggesting that these games (which bring their own share of new ideas to the table and, all things considered, do a lot of things that a lot people like) constitute the death of some notional "true" Sonic? That just sounds like someone with an axe to grind and left a sour taste in my mouth that just didn't need to be there if he had just said his piece about 06 without using it as an opportunity to tear down the newer stuff.
     
  19. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I guess we read that part differently then. I read it less like "the gameplay suffers from Sonic Team focusing on all that stuff" and more like "ST can't ever do these things right so they shouldn't bother".
     
  20. Wraith

    Wraith

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    You did too so let me try and nip this in the bud before it gets too out of hand.

    It was neither. I just think it's fine if some people believe Sonic characters shouldn't talk if they're annoyed by them every time they open their mouths. Like, it's not an unreasonable thing to believe to me based on the games we've had and there are plenty of video game characters that I've wanted to remain silent over the years.

    Personally I think dialogue should be more sparce than it is now but not absent entirely. Sonic and Eggman have really strong designs that they should leverage more through character acting, but they also have really strong personalities and beliefs so voice work shouldn't be off the table. Making games like colors where it's just these three excellent designs standing completely still and trading jokes just feels like a waste to me. That goes for 06 too, just replace the jokes with really dry exposition.
     
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