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Is there good reason anymore to have 2 Sonic designs?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by High Fidelity, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. Wafer


    Find me on Twitter instead Member
    WTF, four posts in a row that I agree with wholeheartedly? Lemme go check myself, did I somehow get a concussion in the night?

    Actual content: heck yeah, the custom character in Sonic Forces kept me coming back for weeks after it was released. NGL my own sona being Sonic's new best buddy was pretty rad, and I hope it's something that Sonic Team considers for future titles. Lately I've been getting an itch to go back and scrounge up the last few red rings.

    Sonic 4's main sin IMO was the number in the name (and maybe the drums, HISSSSSSSS). Call it Advance XL or whatever and I don't think it would have been quite so offensive.
  2. Gestalt


    Sphinx in Chains Member
    Same story, different name. :V Think of all those poor Sonic Advance fans!
  3. SuperSnoopy


    I like Sonic Advance Member
    Lyon, France
    Slice of life visual novel, coming soon...?
    We already had to endure Sonic Advance 3 so I think we would've taken it better, all things considered.
  4. Gestalt


    Sphinx in Chains Member
    You're not a real Sonic Advance fan unless you LOVE Sonic Advance 3 :specialed:
  5. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

    I always thought Advance 3 was really good. Almost all criticism I see towards that game focuses on the level design, but I think that while it’s unfair at points it’s overall pretty solid. The team up mechanic is also really fun and opens the door for tons of replay value. It feels like what Knuckles’ Chaotix should’ve been.
  6. Gestalt


    Sphinx in Chains Member
    Maybe not exactly Knuckles’ Chaotix, but it kinda does its own thing, and who could blame it? The Advance series in general makes for a pretty solid trilogy IMO. So yeah... The special stages were the only thing I probably would have done differently. They’re lacking the… ingeniousness of previous special stages.

    Wait a minute, are we talking about a possible Sonic Advance… 3D?
  7. Frostav


    First of all, this seems to be taking the assumption that 2D classic-styled games wouldn't coexist alongside the 3D titles. I don't want that, in fact I want them to become a staple. Second, people who just flat-out don't like classic Sonic at all are just annoyances we probably need to shed anyway, and my whole suggestion was to implement the elements of classic Sonic that would bolster the parts of modern Sonic that are flawed and no one is really clamoring to remain (lack of visual identity, or identity at ALL really/excessive automation/physics downplayed so much they basically are dead weight at this point/linear short levels without any interesting gimmicks or fun sections or anything) while keeping what modern Sonic fans such as myself do like (plot emphasis, the modern cast, etc.).

    Look man, I really like a good portion of the modern cast like Shadow, Rogue, Blaze, Silver, etc. At least, their original versions (and most modern fans would agree with me--no one wants post-SA2 Shadow when they say they want Shadow to play a bigger role, they meant the completely cheesy toolbag that SA2 Shadow was). I don't want them to be stuck with The Shitty Sonic. I don't want them to show up in explicitly classic games because people would complain if they were playable in like Mania 5 or something and there's really nothing to be done about it, but I not want the modern cast utterly chained to the complete mess that is the Adventure era. I don't want a hypothetical Adventure 3 to just be a sequel to Adventure 2 with all of the stupid shitty cruft that SA2 had. I want it to be, you know, a good and focused game.

    And finally, I don't want Modern to be so utterly disconnected from its classic counterpart so much. Why? Why does it have to be? "Sonic Team split the fanbase and welp we'll have to just deal with it" isn't really an answer.

    "Some people might complain!" tough shit, then? They can deal with it lmao I just want 3D Sonic to actually feel like it has some connection to its classic roots while still having the elements of early 3D Sonic people liked.
  8. DigitalDuck


    Arriving four years late. Member
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    So basically, take the things you like about classic, and the things you like about modern. Got it.

    EDIT: That probably gives off a different tone to what I intended. I won't remove it, but I'll clarify.

    There are plenty of people who don't feel that modern Sonic is lacking a visual identity, and plenty of people who think the levels are interesting. For example, I really love Sonic Unleashed's level design (especially the Act 1-2 versions) and if anything I'm disappointed that they've moved away from that since.

    Similarly, there are plenty of people who don't like the emphasis on plot or the modern cast. How many times have you seen complaints about "all Sonic's shitty friends?"

    What you're arguing here is not for things that people like, but things that you like. And of course, that'll give a Sonic game that you like. But it won't give a Sonic game that people like.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
  9. I'm kind of with Frostav about the merging idea. I think Sonic should have a default, clear identity but then this identity can be intelligently inserted into different contexts to keep the series fresh and evolving.

    Now that there are two Sonics a clear wedge exists between the fandom that shouldn't be there. Sonic IMO should be, for lack of a better term, more "fluid". He should have a strong foundation that he can always go to and build off of (classic) but be fully capable of taking many directions and detours as long as they are handled tastefully and appropriately. In terms of content, there are few ideas in this franchise that, on their own, one could just immediately write off as a bad fit for Sonic. IMO we saw those mostly in 06. But across the other games, the main problem has been the proper contextualizing of the idea.

    Since this example was brought up, guns: AR15 wielding soliders gunning down Sonic and his friends probably doesnt mesh with the more cartoony elements of the series. But what about some silly looking eggman tech, with some alternative projectile other than bullets? And instead of human soliders, there are anthropomorphic rebels or mercenaries trying to hunt down Sonic and friends? (Just an example)

    I also dont think theres any reason Sonic's design cant be modified to fit the type of game he's in, and yet still refer to one Sonic. Other franchises have done this. Why cant a 3D classic Sonic (like Sonic Utopia) and Sonic Adventure exist simultaneously? Or Sonic Mania and Sonic Advance? Except in these cases, the same fundamental gameplay and physics exists between the titles, just with slightly different content focus based on the goals of the game? To me it seems like this would only encourage the fanbase to play the games they like and also try the ones they may not normally have because the same fundamental concept exists underneath.

    I just dont see the need to segment off sections of the fanbase from each other, when even among fans there happens to be a lot of overlap. There are a ton of hopeless adventure fans out there who adore those games, but also do like the classic games as well. Why does the series have to limit it's own sales potential by marketing towards one group at a time? Sonic was meant to be a mass market series. No game is going to appeal to 100% of the audience (like Forces tried to do), but the series shouldn't get in it's own way either. Focus on making strong concepts, and if your concepts diverge too much from the core, take the diverging aspects of the game and put them in a spinoff and label it clearly as such so that the series identity is always protected.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  10. Gestalt


    Sphinx in Chains Member
    Yeah! It’s not the gun, it’s the one who wields it. BUT…

    To some, myself included, the clash of worlds spice up the experience and a fully anthropomorphic cast would be flat-out boring (except they make each of them as memorable and distinct as the main cast). Because let’s be honest: Besides being of different colors they all look basically the same. Also, a horde of naked anthropomorphic animals looks weird, but even weirder with clothes on. (I also found that one scene from Sonic Forces with the artificial sun to be extremely unpleasing from a visual standpoint. Every time an NPC looks inferior to Sonic and co. it kind of hurts the overall image.)

    It seems to me that the reason why Sonic & co. look the way they do is not simply a matter of design, but part of its lore. It suits his character, but gets boring very quickly. So instead of focusing on proper worldbuilding and such they decided that it is better to change things up every now and then. I hope they keep it that way.
  11. So out of boredom, I quickly slapped together my take on what a theoretical 'Modern/Classic Hybrid' design could look like, and this was the result:
    Basically I tried to take what I felt was appealing about both designs and mix and match that together.
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  12. Gonna be honest here....we dont really need this.

    IMO in the in game model for the dreamcast version of SA1 already did this perfectly. Nailed it. Very slightly longer legs and quills for 3D, green eyes but feet and hands still in reasonable proportion compared to the latter 3D games (where his feet and hands are much too big, and he too tall). As a kid, I really thought it was the natural evolution of Sonic from S3K, it felt right. Still do.

    This isnt an unsolved problem.
  13. RDNexus


    So True Story...
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
  14. I never said we needed this, I just posted it for fun. :V

    But yeah, I agree that his look in DC SA1 was great, and I also really liked his look in DC SA2. All the models that came after weren't nearly as expressive, either, which I find to be very sad. Sega really just needs to make new models that are closer to the Adventure-era look, and hire better animators so that the models will be expressive instead of the stiff, dull animations we're getting now.
  15. Huh, I honestly have never seen that render before, lol. Looks great, though.
  16. The quills look terrible all pointing down like that.
  17. RDNexus


    That's Nibroc-Rock's HD representation of DC-era Sonic, mixing elements of SA1&2's design.
    In my opinion, seems to be the best representation of Sonic from that time.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2020
  18. Rudie Radio Waves

    Rudie Radio Waves

    Many a game.
    While I do like the current version of Modern Sonic, I feel he's too lanky. That render is short and cute, while still obviously having his attitude. I quite like it!
    But honestly, I'd like Modern Sonic to go in a different direction, namely having that JSR-ish visual style from the Sonic Riders intro. Something stylized like that would really help set himself apart from his younger counterpart.
    Side note: what's with 2d animated openings for Sonic games and having the best design for the hedgehog in that era?
  19. Wasn't Cranky Kong the original DK though? Even still, your point's still valid, since it is a big change from 81' DK to DKC Cranky.
  20. Might be a bit of a hot take here, but I also noticed that the 06 Sonic model can look pretty decent after a few adjustments:
    He's still a bit too lanky, I think, but I kinda like this look too.