Is Sonic SMS based off the beta version of Sonic Megadrive?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Cooljerk, Apr 21, 2010.

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  1. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Also, not to get off topic in my own topic, but I'd just like to go on and say how impressive Labyrinth Zone is on the SMS. I'd say it's technically one of the most impressive levels on the entire system. For an 8-bit game, that level is an achievement. Nothing in Sonic 2 SMS comes close to being that impressive.

    <!--quoteo(post=445906:date=Apr 21 2010, 02:48 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 21 2010, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445906">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You must also keep in mind that the concept art for Sonic 1 MD looks nothing like any SMS exclusive level so, at most, some levels might have been based on not-so-early concepts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    By concept art you mean actual drawings? Because those don't really look like anything from Sonic 1 MD either.
     
  2. Ayla

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    It makes me happy to see theories again =) Neat idea, but it seems it would make more sense if certain ideas were "based" off others rather than there being any significant connection.
     
  3. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    <!--quoteo(post=445909:date=Apr 21 2010, 05:50 PM:name=Cooljerk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cooljerk @ Apr 21 2010, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445909">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By concept art you mean actual drawings?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And also the Marble Zone mockup with flying tiles, which looks nothing like Bridge Zone.
     
  4. Blanche Hodapp

    Blanche Hodapp

    *urp* Eternal Queen
    <!--quoteo(post=445903:date=Apr 21 2010, 11:45 PM:name=Cooljerk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cooljerk @ Apr 21 2010, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445903">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445594:date=Apr 21 2010, 08:32 AM:name=Cooljerk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cooljerk @ Apr 21 2010, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445594">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only real kink in my theory is Jungle Zone, which I can't place. Admittedly, it background seems similar to the final Spring Yard Zone (as does it's platform design) but I'm not willing to bet it has any connection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Okay, so I obviously missed that part, but still, it's an anomaly =P

    (Though you could say the upward-scrolling Act 2 is similar to the upward-scrolling Labyrinth boss)
     
  5. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    So a couple of questions to anybody who has bothered to look into the Sonic 1 SMS rom - is the level order presented in the game the same level order that they're stored in? I.e. is Bridge Zone actually level 2?

    <!--quoteo(post=445915:date=Apr 21 2010, 03:56 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 21 2010, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445915">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445909:date=Apr 21 2010, 05:50 PM:name=Cooljerk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cooljerk @ Apr 21 2010, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445909">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By concept art you mean actual drawings?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And also the Marble Zone mockup with flying tiles, which looks nothing like Bridge Zone.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah, beta Marble Zone looked way different. Especially if you go further back to when they were using the odd (but much cooler IMO) lava, and the platforms in the sky (assuming that wasn't a mock up or something).

    Speaking of Marble Zone, do we know it was always called Marble Zone? Are there any screen shots of it's title cards from way back when? I know we've seen Sparkling Zone and Clock(w)ork Zone, but how about the others?
     
  6. GoGoThursday

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    <!--quoteo(post=445902:date=Apr 21 2010, 11:39 PM:name=Blanche Hodapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blanche Hodapp @ Apr 21 2010, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445902">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445694:date=Apr 21 2010, 07:41 PM:name=GoGoThursday)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GoGoThursday @ Apr 21 2010, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445694">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most crucially though is this, found in the Sonic SMS rom:
    [​IMG]
    ...which looks strikingly similar to <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/images/7/7a/GHZ-WelcomeSign.png" target="_blank">this</a>. <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Not really, I made it years ago!</span><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sorry, what's the point of bringing it up if you're just going to turn around and go "hurhur not really!"?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well, this thread reminded me of a graphic that I made a few years ago for a fangame. I tried to remake Sonic SMS in the style of the beta Sonic MD, so I posted the graphic as a topic-relevant joke! :)

    I will re-emphasise my original point, which seems to have been overlooked:

    <!--quoteo(post=445694:date=Apr 21 2010, 07:41 PM:name=GoGoThursday)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GoGoThursday @ Apr 21 2010, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445694">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I, too, had this theory. However, I think that <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/images/e/e3/Bridgezone.png" target="_blank">Bridge Zone's mountains</a> bear more resemblance to the <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/images/2/2e/GHZ-DarkBG.jpg" target="_blank">"alpha" Green Hill Zone</a> than to Marble Zone. The mountains in <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/images/0/01/Green_Hill_SMS.png" target="_blank">Green Hill SMS's background</a> also look very similar to the alpha Green Hill, and are of a similar colour. Interestingly, Bridge Zone features Green Hill-style rocks that weren't in the SMS incarnation of the level.

    In Labyrinth Zone, the SMS version features the "ceiling crystals" present in Sonic Beta that were absent in the final build. We can see this in the screenshots that were posted previously.

    So yes, I do think that Sonic SMS was based on an early build of Sonic MD. Ancient were perhaps sent material early on to base the port on, so the game could be released on time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Overall it's an interesting and plausible theory. And in reply to Marble Zone, I think it's always been called that. I don't recall any title card screenshots with a different name for it, just the ones you have mentioned.
     
  7. PC2

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    I thought of this for a while too, especially with the Labyrinth Zone and title screen similarities in mind, but some of this is new to me. I never noticed how similar the Credits Sonic is to that concept art.
     
  8. Vendettagainst

    Vendettagainst

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    I'm sure it is; development probably started when when the Genesis game was in it's earliest stages, and therefore concepts from that version would be used to inspire the SMS game.
     
  9. Sparks

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    Anyone else recall the unused bat in the SMS version? Makes me wish we could have Marble Zone, Spring Yard, and Star Light put into it.


    Then perhaps give Bridge Zone, Jungle Zone, and Sky Base Zone the 16 bit treatment, with improved slopes, ramps, etc. Mainly because it's obvious several platforms were made with the SMS/GG limitations in mind. =P
     
  10. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    <!--quoteo(post=445963:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM:name=Sparks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sparks @ Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445963">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone else recall the unused bat in the SMS version? Makes me wish we could have Marble Zone, Spring Yard, and Star Light put into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Indeed there is an unused bat, and he's based off the Marble Zone bat too!
     
  11. LOst

    LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=445893:date=Apr 22 2010, 02:28 AM:name=Hendricks 266)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hendricks 266 @ Apr 22 2010, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445893">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another thing to add would be that the following <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Game_Secrets:Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(16-bit)#Zone-Specific_Art" target="_blank">unused graphics</a> were found in the MD ROM:

    [​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--quoteo(post=445900:date=Apr 22 2010, 02:35 AM:name=Blue Blood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blue Blood @ Apr 22 2010, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445900">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The edges of the ground in the underground areas. They were used in the 8-bit game, but left used in the 16-bit one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's what I thought too once. But it doesn't make sense. There are only 3 16x16 tiles, and where are only one tile that can be repeated, and it is the bottom one. That means the top side is restricted to that size, as big as a doorway (maybe).

    So why are those tiles left when they are not used? They shouldn't, so my guess is they were used sometime during the development, in the level.
     
  12. LockOnTommy11

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    Those tiles are similar to the Sonic The Hedgehog Game Gear versions, however in the Game Gear game, the colouring is entirely flat. Here they have an almost checkered pattern, and that doesn't even fit with the actual coloured pattern of the final product itself. In both Sonic The Hedgehog on Game Gear and on Mega Drive, the underground or in-wall sections all have a stripy brown colour scheme, which also doesn't fit with the blue backing. Did Green Hill Zone have some see-through doorway pattern, or water path at some point? Who knows? A Sonic team member quoted once before that "the graphics were probably redone 4 or five times [before completion]".
     
  13. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

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    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->which also doesn't fit with the blue backing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The blue.. is the transparent color. lol
     
  14. GoGoThursday

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    Another thing to point out is that the prototype <a href="http://sost.emulationzone.org/sonic_1gg/prototype/6.jpg" target="_blank">Master System version's</a> HUD said "RING", as did the prototype <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/images/d/da/GHZ-Monitor.jpg" target="_blank">Mega Drive version</a>. Also, the SMS's title screen says "PRESS BUTTON", much like the beta MD version (which said "PRESS START BUTTON"). However this wasn't present in the latter version due to a bug, rather than being removed.

    As for <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/images/e/e3/Bridgezone.png" target="_blank">Bridge Zone's mountains</a>, could they have been transferred from an early SMS Green Hill? Perhaps they were originally drawn for Green Hill, based on the <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/images/2/2e/GHZ-DarkBG.jpg" target="_blank">MD alpha</a>, but then transferred to Bridge Zone when the appearance was changed in the MD beta. This idea seems more plausible when you notice the background rocks in the <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/images/0/01/Green_Hill_SMS.png" target="_blank">SMS Green Hill</a> remain blue, as per the MD alpha, but were changed to orange in the MD beta. It's a long shot, but just a theory!
     
  15. E-122-Psi

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    <!--quoteo(post=445963:date=Apr 21 2010, 07:01 PM:name=Sparks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sparks @ Apr 21 2010, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445963">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone else recall the unused bat in the SMS version? Makes me wish we could have Marble Zone, Spring Yard, and Star Light put into it.


    Then perhaps give Bridge Zone, Jungle Zone, and Sky Base Zone the 16 bit treatment, with improved slopes, ramps, etc. Mainly because it's obvious several platforms were made with the SMS/GG limitations in mind. =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Like a Sonic 1 LD you mean? A neat idea really.

    I have seen several screenies, mock ups and other bits and bobs of 16 bit Bridge Zone, sadly none of them have really saw a release (I think it was a dumped concept for Sonic Classic as well, but Hez wasn't satisfied with the results). It's an interesting thought though:

    [​IMG]

    By the way did any of you guys do these awesome remixes?:

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO-EpqgThfQ&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO-EpqgThfQ...feature=related</a>

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B95ULhykVo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B95ULhykVo</a>

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13QtraXaQX0&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13QtraXaQX0...feature=related</a>

    <!--quoteo(post=446035:date=Apr 21 2010, 08:52 PM:name=Cooljerk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cooljerk @ Apr 21 2010, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=446035">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445963:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM:name=Sparks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sparks @ Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445963">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone else recall the unused bat in the SMS version? Makes me wish we could have Marble Zone, Spring Yard, and Star Light put into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Indeed there is an unused bat, and he's based off the Marble Zone bat too!
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Maybe there wasn't any ethical place to put Batbrain, since bats usually lay around in cave areas, I suppose Marble Zone was the most logical place. Otherwise may it's movement programming was too complex.
     
  16. That's a pretty reasonable theory. Kudos to you! :)
     
  17. LockOnTommy11

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    <!--quoteo(post=446171:date=Apr 22 2010, 09:19 AM:name=Master Emerald)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Emerald @ Apr 22 2010, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=446171">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->which also doesn't fit with the blue backing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The blue.. is the transparent color. lol
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    My mistake again. When it comes to rips, usually I find that the transparent colour is black or white, or even see-through. That didn't occur to me. :ssh:
     
  18. ColinC10

    ColinC10

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    <!--quoteo(post=445594:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:32 PM:name=Cooljerk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cooljerk @ Apr 21 2010, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445594">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now don't get me wrong, this is a pretty unfounded theory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You very nearly lost me there, but I'm glad I read on. Ayla's right, it's good to see theories again! I've always noticed the similarities between Star Light and Sky Base, but I never really made any other connections between the two games. Your comparison between Spring Yard and the special stages seems fairly plausible, and I'd be willing to bet there's some truth in it.

    However, I disagree that Marble Zone and Bridge Zone are in any way related. Your links seem pretty tenuous for that one. In fact, (uh oh, I feel a theory coming on!), I'd say Bridge Zone looks more like another, alternate Green Hill Zone. The foreground and background art both look like they could have come from an earlier attempt at the level. We also have blue rocks, waterfalls, platforms, bridges and two badniks (Buzz Bomber and Chopper) that have either been taken directly from Green Hill or would look very much at home there.

    <!--quoteo(post=445904:date=Apr 21 2010, 11:45 PM:name=Black Squirrel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Squirrel @ Apr 21 2010, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445904">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bridge and Jungle zone were always fairly poor levels as far as I'm concerned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Oddly, those two levels were always my favourites, but you're absolutely right about the whole "rushed" aspect. The levels don't deviate from one simple horizontal path (vertical for JZ2) with instant death at the bottom - hardly a lesson in good design! I think it's quite likely that these zones were cobbled together fairly quickly, using left over bits from other levels. I had a quick look at Jungle Zone to see if I could work out where it came from and there are more Green Hill influences, such as the spiked logs. Also, I've just noticed that the Jungle Zone background could actually be clouds that have been palette swapped to look like trees. Anybody else see it, or have I got carried away with all this theorizing? :specialed:
     
  19. Diablohead

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    I love bridge zone, it has that classic sonic feel.
     
  20. E-122-Psi

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    Bridge Zone admitedly was a bit on the generic side and was a very linear level moving straight forward with few vertical routes, it was still pretty fun but it was indeed one of the most basic levels in a Sonic game.

    Jungle Zone however was a bit more complex and unique and was more on par with the 16 bit mechanics, the first act at least was more expanded in terms of pathways and had a few secret areas here and there (especially due to the slide sections).
     
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