Interesting Finds

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by LockOnTommy11, May 18, 2010.

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  1. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    Okay, here goes.

    I've been busting through the DS's Sonic Classic Collection lately, and I've found some interesting things that I'd like to put forward.

    Firstly, as we're all aware, Michael Jackson had something to do with Sonic 3's development in terms of musical score. We've had theories about what music he actually worked on for the game, some of which has been verified, whilst others have been speculated about. Looking at Cirocco's website, we can see that zones 2 & 3 were definitely acknowledged, whilst music like Ice Cap sounds very much like other MJ music. Now, having been playing Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles/Sonic 3 & Knuckles on the DS, I've found some very interesting things.

    Music where voice samples are placed sound odd. The voice samples sound more like actual basic recordings, rather than digitized versions. They sound lower pitch, whereas the rest of the music that they fit into is normal.

    What does this mean? Well, I've made a connection with Sonic and Knuckles Collection on the PC. S&KC removed all of the digitized voice tracks and replaced them with their own new midis. I once heard that an explanation was given by SEGA that it was merely because of emulation issues in some form or another for the PC why the music was taken. I'm sure now that has been generally disproven, but given how the music sounds different or 'odd' in the current DS collection, perhaps the music really was removed because of emulation issues, rather than some secret hidden agenda to Michael Jackson?

    Now, I've found some more interesting points about the game, which I'm sure you guys in the community can clear up.

    Sonic 3 and Knuckles DS has some differences from the console version. When a character is supposed to go behind scenery, he doesn't. Also, when Knuckles jumps on Dr Robotnik in the Hidden Palace Zone and gets shocked, his Sonic 3 theme plays. This is not present in any other version, and it also appears in a slot on the sound test, which if memory serves me right, does not contain anything on the console version (having been the basis for the MJ argument as it was very MJ sounding and was removed once Sonic 3 & Knuckles were joined).

    I'm aware that you guys know about the scenery scenario, and there's something about the music which is different too, which I'm not 100% clear on either. Perhaps this changes any perspectives on the situation.

    This is rather peculiar, and has led me to ask the question; what version of Sonic and Knuckles is this? Is it one we don't know about? Are there merely logical explanations for the mishaps here? Are large parts of the MJ argument even valid anymore? We know he worked on two specific zones, but maybe it ends there?

    I'll leave it to you guys.
     
  2. nineko

    nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=455834:date=May 18 2010, 08:09 PM:name=SpeedStarTMQ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpeedStarTMQ @ May 18 2010, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455834">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->[​IMG]
    De-hotlinked, in case anyone was wondering if that pic was related to your post.
     
  3. dsrb

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    <!--quoteo(post=455834:date=May 18 2010, 07:09 PM:name=SpeedStarTMQ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpeedStarTMQ @ May 18 2010, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455834">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Music where voice samples are placed sound odd. The voice samples sound more like actual basic recordings, rather than digitized versions. They sound lower pitch, whereas the rest of the music that they fit into is normal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I remember reading a post that claimed that the samples sounded clearer in SCC. In either case, I'd guess that any differences/quirks are due to the emulator that was used to record the songs for the compilation (which streams them from disc, due to processing power constraints).

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What does this mean? Well, I've made a connection with Sonic and Knuckles Collection on the PC. S&KC removed all of the digitized voice tracks and replaced them with their own new midis. I once heard that an explanation was given by SEGA that it was merely because of emulation issues in some form or another for the PC why the music was taken. I'm sure now that has been generally disproven, but given how the music sounds different or 'odd' in the current DS collection, perhaps the music really was removed because of emulation issues, rather than some secret hidden agenda to Michael Jackson?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Both are fairly credible possibilities. All or most of the removed songs both A: had DAC samples (which could not be relied upon to work on sound cards of the time), and B: sounded like MJ may have been involved in the composition.

    I would guess that any differences in music and graphics are simply due to emulation quirks (or in the case of the switched boss tracks, silly devs), and not related to MJ.
     
  4. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    What confuses me is that if the boss tracks were to be switched, then surely the Sonic 3 mini-boss theme would play for all of the same musical events? As it happens, it only appears during that one scene. :colbert:

    Edit: I checked, and it does actually appear. Either I haven't noticed or it's a random occurance.
     
  5. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    Right, here we go again...

    The voice samples in SCC sound better because the music isn't being emulated/played through the original hardware. Same music, but it's not being limited by the Megadrive this time. And some of the wrong music is played in SK on SCC simply because the wrong file is being used. If the music was being emulated, it would all be perfectly as you remember. It's not an emulation glitch or random occurrence, it's silly devs. And the whole matter of characters not appearing behind objects when they're supposed to? That is just an emulation glitch.

    None of the games in SCC are previously unknown versions. I swear this has all been said a thousand times already in the SCC topic.
     
  6. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    Well, I suppose that's most of it cleared up! Sorry for any inconvenience!

    Still, the MJ music detail is still interesting. Maybe we should leave all options openly equal.
     
  7. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    C&P from the wiki:<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One possible explanation for replacing these tracks is that those pieces of music used sound effects not supported by the MIDI standard, and some sound cards during this time were not capable of playing the MIDI patches as well as sampled sound effects in the music. Another explanation for the replacement is that the original tracks may have been composed by Jackson, and were removed in this remake due to legal reasons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's one of the other, and I'd be willing to bed it's the former. No other version of S3K has had the <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>superior</span> music that was in the PC version, so there's probably nothing to worry about with legal issues. The MJ involvement was confirmed a while ago actually. S'pose we don't know for sure though why the change, and it's always fun to share ideas.
     
  8. Lostgame

    Lostgame

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    So I guess I'm not the only one who vastly prefers the PC music. Hoorah!
     
  9. Overlord

    Overlord

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    However, I suspect you ARE a minority. =P I know I for one vastly prefer the original tunes.
     
  10. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    Even Carnival Night? People seem to say quite often that they prefer the PC version of that. As for Ice Cap, the MD one it awesome but completely doesn't mesh with the stage. It sounds too serious for a winter wonderland ice stage. The PC one does fit and sounds better too. Same goes for Launch Base about it sounding better.
     
  11. Why hasn't anybody made versions of the PC MIDIs with genesis instruments yet?
     
  12. Polygon Jim

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    <!--quoteo(post=455910:date=May 18 2010, 04:36 PM:name=True Dude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (True Dude @ May 18 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455910">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why hasn't anybody made versions of the PC MIDIs with genesis instruments yet?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/48wugEUoPpo&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/48wugEUoPpo&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
     
  13. Chimpo

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    <!--quoteo(post=455915:date=May 18 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ May 18 2010, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455915">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=455910:date=May 18 2010, 04:36 PM:name=True Dude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (True Dude @ May 18 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455910">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why hasn't anybody made versions of the PC MIDIs with genesis instruments yet?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/48wugEUoPpo&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/48wugEUoPpo&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Those sound awful.
     
  14. Bibin

    Bibin

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    Let's knock that scenery issue out of the way.

    It's based on the homebrew emulator "JenesisDS" and as it takes various speed-gaining shortcuts layering bugs aren't uncommon.

    Anyway, continue.
     
  15. GT Koopa

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    What I would like to see is mashup remixes of the PC and Genesis tracks. Carnival Night and Carnival Night, Ice Cap and Ice Cap, Launch Base and Launch Base, etc.
     
  16. I appreciate the time and effort went into transforming the MIDIs into Genesis tracks, but besides the Competition Theme, they all sound god-awful. I don't think they're good tracks, period.
     
  17. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    The PC versions are a lot more forgettable. I much prefer the MEGA DRIVE versions.
     
  18. OSM

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    <!--quoteo(post=455915:date=May 18 2010, 04:43 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ May 18 2010, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455915">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=455910:date=May 18 2010, 04:36 PM:name=True Dude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (True Dude @ May 18 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455910">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why hasn't anybody made versions of the PC MIDIs with genesis instruments yet?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/48wugEUoPpo&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/48wugEUoPpo&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That was certainly interesting, the PC version has a horrible soundtrack though.
     
  19. MainMemory

    MainMemory

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    From Sonic 3 Complete thread:
    <!--quoteo(post=455347:date=May 17 2010, 08:44 AM:name=MainMemory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MainMemory @ May 17 2010, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455347">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Apparently nineko has made SMPS conversions of the PC songs:
    <a href="http://digilander.iol.it/projectchaos/DATA_71(2).vgz" target="_blank">http://digilander.iol.it/projectchaos/DATA_71(2).vgz</a> LBZ2
    <a href="http://digilander.iol.it/projectchaos/DATA_65(2).vgz" target="_blank">http://digilander.iol.it/projectchaos/DATA_65(2).vgz</a> CNZ2

    I haven't had a chance to listen to them because Winamp won't start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
     
  20. Those pc songs sound like they'd fit in with sonic 4's soundtrack pretty well.
     
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