In terms of gameplay, is Sonic Adventure DX substantially different from the Dreamcast version?

The problems with the S3K physics comes down to using an new piece of tech for ground collision instead of just using the old solidity tiles from the old games. They use Stealth's Path Tracer technology. This is supposed to be so the games can do vector collision so they avoid things like step boundaries becoming too big that you phase through walls and become stuck (aka "Robotnik's traps") but they induced their own bugs. However, Sonic 1 and 2 do not use this. And Sonic 1 and 2 on android were already out, and we had already seen they did not have the kinds of problems you're talking about.

Anyways litigating Sonic 1 and 2 aren't my point, the point is Sega does this kind of stuff all the time. They don't use their best, newest releases, for annoying reasons.

 

As someone who grew up with the GameCube port of SADX and didn't find out how the Dreamcast original looked until maybe around 2007-9, I was kinda shocked at how much better the Dreamcast original looked from a visual standpoint. Genuinely the only graphical difference that I thought could be argued that was for the better was the character models, but I've kinda grown to like the Dreamcast models too and just play the game with those instead.

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle? Adventure definitely always had it's fair share of criticisms, but DX introduces a lot of little things that I think a casual player is likely to run into on a completely blind playthrough. I think there are a fair bit of new collision issues you're likely to run into by doing something slightly unorthodox. Combine that with visual downgrades across the board, and I think that sours perception on the game some. I'd sooner recommend the Dreamcast release overall to someone going in completely blind, but if you didn't like Big's gameplay and think styles like that destroy the game, your perception on the game isn't going to magically change playing the DC release.

It's also worth pointing out that every port of SADX past the GameCube release introduced one or two new nagging issues that dropped things even further, and those are more widely accessible than the GameCube release now. The only things that I think every release of DX does better than the Dreamcast original is the (admittedly kinda broken) 60FPS implementation, cutscene skipping, and the improved Chao Garden. Mission Mode is also a kinda cute addition that gives the HUBs a bit more to do, but I've never had interest in doing all of the missions legitimately in the years I've owned the game. Some of the hints are perhaps a bit too obscure for my tastes.

Sadly I don't ever really foresee Sega doing an emulated release of the Dreamcast version since that's a fair bit more resource intensive than a no-thrills Genesis emulator. That and I'm not sure how easy it would be to handle VMU emulation either that has a nice fancy UI to switch between that and the regular game.

 

Kingdom Hearts's source was not lost. Its data was lost.

That's only part of the problem. The Retro Engine is infamous for its crush issues due to the different way it does collision, and how it doesn't incorporate certain allowances.

While I was porting Sonic & Knuckles Collection's solid object collision code to C, I found the following bit in Sonic 2's disassembly, under label SolidObject_Squash:

Code (ASM):

1.    ; Hey, look: it's the two lines of code that the Taxman/Stealth
2.    ; remasters forgot to copy.
3.    ; If Sonic is near the left or right edge of the object, then don't
4.    ; kill him, instead just push him away horizontally.
5.    cmpi.w    #$10,d4
6.    blo.w    SolidObject_LeftRight

 

while that's funny and I love the explanation in the comment, I have to admit I grow so tired of snark in comments. I would prefer it if they were much dryer, perhaps note that the routine wasn't ported to the Taxman remake without the "hey look" stuff. Just my opinion (and I'm aware you didn't write the comment).

 

I'm gonna be honest - I think a lot of the way Adventure fans act is because they were treated like dogshit for years. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody in this thread or even anyone in specific, but I think when people are in the same fandom spaces for decades on end, they forget how downright abrasive and dismissive their vernacular comes across. When it comes to the topic of Sonic Adventure DX, I do think that it is substantially worse than the Dreamcast version, and I do think that does color why people look at it the way they do now; but moreso than anything, I think that the reason why Adventure fans bring it and Battle up so often is because they have been repeatedly forced to justify liking popular games that sold millions of copies and reviewed well when they were contemporary. This is like, seemingly a problem that is unique to Sonic, and it's actually so infuriating to watch that it has made me entirely stop consuming any sort of reviews or opinion pieces related to the franchise because of how needlessly inflammatory they can be.

I have never seen a group of fans receive as much undeserved scorn as Adventure fans, full stop, in any other fandom. Literally nobody is sitting around bullying Pokemon fans for liking Generation I even though those games make the Adventure duology look like they were made by NASA scientists. The culture that was fostered by older fans is coming back to bite them in the ass; yes, Adventure fans act irrationally, and I am well aware that arguing on the internet is not the most important or impactful thing in the world, but typically people who continually face unfair ostracization will end up reacting in one way or another. I'm not exactly interested in replying back and forth on this topic, just wanted to state my opinion on it.

(Also I don't even really think anyone thinks Sonic X is "Emmy-worthy." It's relatively popular in certain circles of the fandom, but I think even a lot of those people understand that huge swathes of it blow in both English and Japanese.)

 

I'll say that I absolutely loved Sonic Adventure and replay it often and I'm often surprised to see it get bashed so much. I think people lose track of A) the gaming trends of the time and B) the age of the game. When Sonic Adventure came out, big adventure-style games with lots of different mini games were the rage, because games had never been that before. Stuff like Snowboarding in FF7, or Fishing in Zelda, that kind of stuff. From that context, even the most contentious stuff like Big's chapter blew me away, because it was like I was getting a full bass fishing game with my dreamcast through sonic adventure. The game came out in 1998, it's wild to see people compare it to stuff much newer. I still feel like Sonic Adventure was exactly what I was expecting and wanted from a big 3D sonic game, it was very much an answer to Mario 64 from my perspective. I love the tone, the style, the level design, the music. Very honestly, upon release, Sonic Adventure was right in line with Sonic 1, 2, 3, CD, and Knuckles. Sonic Adventure 2 was where I felt a bit iffy, but Sonic Adventure 1 was solid top to bottom IMO. I enjoyed every bit of it.

And it's truthfully not just because the graphics were eye melting at release. I've seen incredibly pretty but shallow games all my life and I never have the love for them I do for Sonic Adventure. And I replay Sonic Adventure frequently every few years, so it's not nostalgia.

I've truthfully never really played the Gamecube versions of either SA or SA2, because I always stuck to the Dreamcast version. When I eventually did play through DX on Steam, it was mind blowing how poor of a port it was.

 

I grew up with SADX, and I’ll say I was actually shocked by how much I enjoyed playing Adventure “properly” by modding the Steam version. The game looked and played a ton better, even if the base game was close to the same.

If SEGA were serious about preserving Adventure, I know it wouldn’t be muttered in the same breath as say Mario 64 or OoT, but it definitely wouldn’t have the weird dogshit reputation it has now. I think it’s really be remembered as a solid early 3D game.

 

I mean, if we look at raw stats I could nitpick Sonic Adventure all day. 2.5 million copies worldwide is great for a dreamcast game, but it represents a steep drop off compared to it's contemporaries or even Sonic games from earlier in the decade.

This isn't damning on it's own-circumstances for the dreamcast were obviously different than the Mega Drive or the PS1, but it's food for thought if you're trying to navigate the truth behind it's legacy. i suspect that comparatively speaking a lot of people just didn't play it until it was ported over to the gamecube in fucking 2003. Sonic Adventure might no look so bad compared to i it's peers in 98 but it's downright embarrassing at that point, especially compared to the standard for tech sonic held in the 90s and how the industry would change from year to year back then. Pumping up the graphics was the obvious choice to start closing the gap even if the end result was subpar, but the game might have needed more drastic design tweaks before it was fit for a revival. The shit porting job didn't help obviously, but if you actually read the IGN and Gamespot reviews from back then, they do directly call it a shit port and acknowledge the Dreamcast version as better far earlier than that idea caught wind in the wider fanbase. If the fanbase is anything like me, this is because they grew up on the gamecube version anyway and don't even have as good of a point of reference on this whole thing as the reviewers they complain about, but I digress.

With new games on the horizon they probably didn't see the harm it would do to Sonic as a brand as an issue but there's not much consideration for Sonic Adventure as an individual asset. And why would there be? Getting as many Sonic boxes on the shelves as possible was the priority back then, and Sonic Adventure ultimately failed to turn the ship around on the company's woes despite any perceived quality. It was just more meat for the chopping block at the time. It had to be to help stem SEGA's financial woes. They, imo, did the game foul regardless of how good it actually is.

All that being said I wish I could sympathize with the chip-on-your-shoulder angle but I just don't. it's fine-healthy, even- to question a game's quality. The inflammatory rhetoric back then was obnoxious but ultimately so miniscule compared to the damage Sega themselves did to this game's legacy that I kind of consider it a separate issue. It all springs from their choices from the initial Dreamcast release to now.

 

I suspect this may play a larger part than people may realize. We used to be called “adventure babies” 10+ years ago even on this very site as a derogatory term for ruining the older people’s favorite series. The diminishing quality of the games certainly didn’t help fight that belief.

 

Oh god, here comes the victim card again.

If you can't stand people not liking your favorite game, then you should not be on the internet. If disagreements over video games genuinely generate such a strong, emotional response from you, then you clearly have never experienced any real persecution or discrimination.

 

Can't wait for the Graff bros to come out of the woodwork in 10 years talking about how the mean Adventure fans made them the way they are.

 

I mean, I'm not one of those big Adventure fans (I'm more of a 90s kid), and even I see condescension toward them in this place often. On one occasion I was even accused of being one of them for daring to defend one aspect of SA2, even though I prefer the classic and boost games, and find SA2 to be a slog overall.

 

Not gonna lie: it was very amusing to watch fans who had derided complaints about green eyes and Adventure-era stories start acting the very same way about blue arms and Baldy McNosehair. This kind of Schadenfreude doesn't come by easy.

 

Looking back, the complaints about green eyes actually seem coherent in comparison to whatever "Short quills, muzzle curve, buttbrow, hotdog shoes" means

 

I rest my case

 

Honestly, Jaxer is one of like, a small handful of those sorts of posters. Overall this board is way more positive and friendly towards non-Classic related Sonic stuff than it's been in my 14 years here. I see much more pushback against "Classic Sonic Elitism" nowadays than any such elitism itself.

 

Outside of memeing on CWC I don't think complaints about the Boom design were ever quite so prominent, at least from Adventure fans in particular of all groups. You can like Adventure's story without thinking Baldy McNosehair is funny or vice versa and there's no contradiction either way. This kind of schadenfreude doesn't come easy because it's forced.

I've cried about the baldy joke a few times myself but I certainly prefer it to having to look at Sonic's weird poop scarf, so I don't like grouping Colors and RoL together like this to begin with even as someone who doesn't like Colors much.

 

I think the idea that there's fans that exclusively grew up with a specific era and as a result have an opinionated bias for that era is bogus. Nostalgia will presumably have an effect on how you view something, but this sentiment is ignoring the fact that the gameplay of Sonic is drastically different depending on game. Perhaps those differences just appeal to different people and the people who exclusively like one wouldn't like the others even if they grew up with them. The entire thing is self selective, people who played Sonic Adventure as their first game but didn't like it are less likely to become interested in Sonic at all, let alone stick around and discuss their opinions on forums.

I know this still results in bias but it's not bias in the sense of how opinions are formed. It's just that the people who tend to hold those opinions are more common in this community as otherwise they wouldn't be in this community. This could be really interesting to actually analyse instead of dismissing peoples arguments for being "nostalgia-blind"

 

Most initial complaints about Boom aesthetically centred around Knuckles' design I think, and didn't last very long because Boom itself wasn't around all that long. And Baldy Nosehair discourse only really started up around Colors Ultimate didn't it?

 

Who pissed in your cereal?
To make this post mean something, no, I’m not saying anyone is a “victim” its a Fkin sonic game. I am however agreeing with the notion that it may have shaped their now grown up reflection of the game/s they grew up with in the past. Which has now led to the large discourse around these games.