Important Project Structure Discussion

Discussion in 'Project: Sonic Retro (Archive)' started by Stealth, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. Phoebius

    Phoebius

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    I'm not a leader anymore. I'm not good at that. I just wanted to be moderator to "transfert" the work here.
     
  2. Mobiethian

    Mobiethian

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    I believe that Rika should be "the" lead artist but he can't do it all alone. As he mentioned before, we need more pixel artists to do zone art.

    We should probably keep a list somewhere of project developers/coordinators and possibly create a new recruiting thread too? - Without a validation setback of course. I can handle taking charge of the project coordination, but I don't want to do it alone. Stealth, are you interested in joining me with the project coordination?
     
  3. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    I DONE MAKED GAMES.
    Can I throw some hot water into an already close-to-boiling pot?

    I'm completely with Stealth on this, for all points he has made; but I'll add more.

    Here's a thing I'm sick of bringing up and being ignored (Either partially or totally, depends on the subject, and how heated people are about it); RESEARCH

    Now, it might seem like a real boring thing to do. In fact, I personally hate doing research at uni, but it doesn't stop me from cramming in reams of sources and inspirations for my art, because I do appreciate how important it is.

    Research into the various inspirations for Sonic (Felix? Mickey Mouse? Michael Jackson?) and a little deconstruction of the character and key themes will help to make other characters (Note: A badnik is a character albeit a minor one. This is relevant.) fit into the whole 'universe' better. This is a thing I think even SEGA themselves have either forgotten or lost sight of, looking at those 'Eggman Robot' piles of generic shit in Sonic Heroes and Sonic Rush.

    Research into the various graphic design elements that make up the presentation (Art Deco? Constructivist? Pop Art? Bauhaus and Surrealist leanings?) would be more than handy for designing title cards and the like which not only fit in well with the general look, but use those same researched themes and principles to bring forth a fresh look whilst remaining cohesive.

    Research into the various Real World (tm) inspirations of existing Sonic locales (And I'm talking about every fucking game. As Stealth has said here, and I remember saying early in the "S4" brainstorming sessions, do not discount a single official thing -- even the bad can be valuable tools by way of example; what to avoid, etc.) and, again, deconstructing them. Is the chequered pattern in Green Hill Zone merely a hardware-limited decision (A cursory look at the repetition and obsolete tiles in the 8x8s tells me "no") or a stylistic choice?

    Research into the popular styles and fashions when Sonic originally came out, how the games changed with the Real World (tm) pop-culture climate and how that could be repeated in a modern context without simply giving an unwilling hedgehog a fucking gun.

    And I would like to say what is, to me, the most important thing: This project needs to be as fresh as it is familiar. Strange new ideas absolutely should not be shot down, but discussed. At length.

    I would go so far as to request an in-subforum rule: There is no such thing as tl;dr here. Can't be bothered to read a lengthy post for analysis and feedback? Then your opinion is ill-informed, and defaulted as a result of this.

    I say this, because if the project ends up as a fan reprisal of Sonic 3 and Knuckles (And believe me, a large part of the group here seem to want exactly that), we'll be selling the collective talents assembled here extremely short.
     
  4. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    With the deparute of Phoebius from the project coordination team, I would like to seriously suggest Jayextee for the job. He was an excellent cantidate to do so for S2HD, and I have no doubt he could do an even better job on this project. He's totally on board and really know exactly how we need to plan this game out for it to be as good as it can possibly be.

    Anyone agree?
     
  5. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo

    Your friendly neighbourhood lemming. Oldbie
    Well he was already a "sonicologist" on the old board, but I'm pretty sure he was offered a leadership position he turned down (I could be wrong) and then didn't post much on the Sonic 4 forums either.

    I wish I could be more active but I've been swamped lately with university work (final year) so I really don't have the time right now.
     
  6. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    If there is an agreement on this I can update you in a week as to whether I can or not. I'd love to, but this seriously depends on whether this time we've actually got the Internet sorted out at my place yet.

    I turned down the position this summer, mainly because of RL drama issues. I won't go into them, but this summer was a mess. I'm in a better situ right now.
     
  7. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo

    Your friendly neighbourhood lemming. Oldbie
    Well in that case, I have no objections ;)
     
  8. Phoebius

    Phoebius

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    Yeah, you would make a good leader.
     
  9. Ultima

    Ultima

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    Publishing mobile games!
  10. I think we need to break from the whole "If they actually released Sonic 4" ethos.

    Sonic Adventure was the natural progression of the series. It continued the Angel Island saga, gave it a fitting finish, and continued with many themes of the series. To simply wedge a stand-alone game between S3K and SA and trying to pass it off as "natural" would be sheer ignorance.

    As a part of the series we need to design this as if it was a sort of breakoff game like Sonic CD or Chaotix.
     
  11. Jordanime

    Jordanime

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    Sounds like Jayextee would be a fantastic subject-matter expert, of course since I'm new here I can't form a valid opinion on the leadership abilities of anyone, and I certainly wouldn't nominate myself for a number of reasons, so whoever the majority thinks is best, I think would be the best option, this is a fan-project after all.

    So we'll end up with a sub-standard game? And isn't the classic argument there that Choatix is the end end product of what Sonic 4 was supposed to be?

    I just don't understand the mentality. Sonic Adventure is almost a completely different game experience than the classic 2D Sonic game, and Sonic Advance lost the sort of divine spark.
     
  12. STHX

    STHX

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    You know, I was one of the supporters of the name Sonic 4, but after the return to Sonic Retro and the name change I changed idea too.

    I originally saw many good things on the name Sonic 4, but then I realized its limitations too. The whole thing of the "if SEGA" was cool but...

    Hey, I have nothing against SEGA, they made a lot of good Sonic games, and this is the problem: they made some really good Sonic games on the Genesis, maybe too good. The problem is that some games like Sonic 3 & Knuckles really uses almost all of what the Genesis can offer (hell, they even divided it in 2 games!) and if we follow those limitations too we will end in something who will be like that game (or even something not good like that game at worst). You all know that the knowledge gathered in this forum can't be compared to the one of anyone else, and you know that here we have the best programmers, artist, level designers and composers of all the Sonic fans. I really believe that, if we all work together, we can truly make a game who can rival, if not surpass, S3K. But to do this we'll need to eliminate all the limitations of the true Sonic games. And unfortunately some of them are also the technical ones.

    But that's not the only problem. Some of the concept posted here and in the old forum are really amazing, but ask yourselves: Do you truly believe SEGA would have used them? The answer is, unfortunately, no.
    For example do you truly think SEGA would have added splith paths to a possible "Sonic 4"? But this is an awesome idea, which will allow the game to have a higher degree of replayability and will allow us to add more Zones. But even if you can see it as an evolution of the "two signposts" of Spring Yard Zone Act 2 it's still something far away from it.
    Another example, the fake signpost mid-boss. When I was spriting it I said to myself: Whoa... its starting to look very cool, but there is no way SEGA would have putted it in an actual game. And this is true, because even this signpost is a full blast of "Nostalgia", there is absolutely no reason for why SEGA should have putted it in an hypotetical "Sonic 4", since if that game came out after S3K then it definetely didn't need any nostalgia at all.

    Let's talk about the Zone number. Lately all of the 2D Sonic games SEGA is doing have almost always 7 Zones. You may also notice some similarities if you sum the number of actual levels (all Act and also the Special Stages) you may notice a recurring pattern. So it is very possible that a possible Sonic 4 would have had 7, or 8 Zones. Well, then how can you compare it to S3K who had 13 (12 if HP and SS are counted as one since they have only 1 Act) full Zones! No, this is not a minor detail, because all 13 Zones were freaking awesome and the number helped to make the game more enjoyable (I almost never play Sonic 3 and S&K alone because, among other things, they are too short). I think that this game should feature a lot of Zones, and that we should work together to make the unique, and you know this is possible. Yes, I know that even one more Zone means more work for everyone, but if in the end it can make the game better why should this be a problem?

    Another spiny problem is the music. Well in this case, maybe I'm still on the side of the Genesis voices, but... Come on, even I, and I'm one of the bigger supporters of the old style sound, can't deny that if a music is good it doesn't matter if it has old-gen or next-gen sounds. And Tweaker spoke right when he said "Sonic CD is retro, so what's the problem of Sonic CD instruments?" thing. Still if this game was made on the Genesis alone there would have not been any chance of something different than the Genesis voices. And sincer we're here, I too think that "original music only" is a good idea, but what if one day someone makes an awesome remix of, let's say, Death Egg from S&K, a remix much more light paced and happy that it is so different from the original that it could play even in the Tropical Zone and it could still be fitting. Even if it would be the best music ever we will'exclude it because it is not fully original. Of course, again, SEGA would have used only original music only, but come on, I'm not saying to reuse the same tunes with 2 added notes, but if a music is good, even if based over another Sonic tune, why should we exclude it? The best for this game soundrack would be, in my opinion, to combine original tunes with hi-quality remixes of past Sonic music.


    Man... I need to go to sleep. Even I am not sure of what the fuck I have written, but the main point should be "no more what if Sega made it" because if we all work together we can, and probably will, surpass Sega's Sonic masterpiece.

    Now to sleep.
    <.> zzzzz
     
  13. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    I DONE MAKED GAMES.
    I've basically said this, and I think it should be the project's mission statement. There is a fuckton of talent on this forum, and trying to set our standards as low as mere replication or homage would be a criminal waste of them -- and with careful planning and research, the entire thing can be as Sonic-esque as is human possible without merely aping that which has been done.

    There is also the problem that for many of us (Myself included), there hasn't been a groundbreaking Sonic game since the Megadrive, and setting our sights on an already-dated target is pretty ridiculous. Sega moved with the times to an extent, but butchered the franchise (Again, completely subjective, but the commonly-held opinion around these parts) in doing so. Not ruining the series does not mean the inverse, and not moving with the times; an attitude the "What if SEGA..." rhetoric actually promotes, I feel.

    Might I also add, that STHX's post here was amazing. The more people were to articulate their thoughts in such a manner, the better in my opinion.
     
  14. DimensionWarped

    DimensionWarped

    Erinaceous! Oldbie
    If keeping up with the times is the issue, going back to the style of a 90s game with a 90s graphical style and everything else seems self-contradictory to me. Like I said before, the big thing I'm looking for here is something that has a similar type of change to Sonic 3 what Sonic 3 had to Sonic 2. Basically, what I'm saying is that what's being proposed here is a retro game, so it needs to be built from a certain mindset that is similar to the one that would have been used had they chosen to go this route instead of basically stashing the IP in cryo for 5 years.

    Certainly, I agree that the technology of the Genesis is a pointless limiting factor to have. At the same time though, I'm not at all sure where you are going with this angle of breaking away from "What would they do". The big question I have is whats the alternative to that?

    Really, what's the mindset now?

    EDIT: One quick thing I'm going to add to this is that this project was started somewhat as a reaction to Mega Man 9. If this project is going away from that kind of angle, I just want to know what the new angle is.
     
  15. Phoenix

    Phoenix

    Has really been far even as decided to use even go Member
    Would it help to say that I don't know what tl;dr means at all? I guess from your explanation, I don't have to post it anyways.
     
  16. Malevolence

    Malevolence

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    Too long; didn't read
     
  17. Phoenix

    Phoenix

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    If you think about it, this new direction is that of Mega Man 9 in a way. We have a new game with a new engine and a different platform that will, hopefully, have the feel of and be as good as, if not better than, any of the previous games in that series with that style. There's a new dev team, and we're trying to stay in the tradition of the past games, while the game will have new, innovative ideas that are probably things that the original developers would have never done, like Splash Woman, a female character that would have never been in an original Mega Man game. Like Jayextee said, new ideas should absolutely not be shot down just because they're strange and different. An attitude like that is the kind that prevents innovations from being made. If everyone was just normal, what would be accomplished in the world?

    Thanks! I hate it when I'm new on a forum and don't know what the heck some of the people are talking about.
     
  18. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    Wait a second, what's all this "Sonic Crackers was going to be Sonic 4"? What did I miss?
     
  19. Phoenix

    Phoenix

    Has really been far even as decided to use even go Member
    I guess since it was made by the original developers and it had Sonic and Tails in it, it was supposedly going to be the fourth, or something. I don't know what the whole ring-connection thing was going to be, though.
     
  20. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    It was? Since when?