If Sega only cared about pandering to YOU, what kind of Sonic game would they make?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Dec 22, 2021.

  1. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    I also think it's like this, to give quite particular approaches instead of vague or generic opinions. The "girls only" and the metroidvania approaches are a good example, but is in cases like the two quoted below where we see what I'd wish everyone did, albeit in more traditional approaches, which is why I'm gonna answer them particularly:

    Smash Bros is already a 2D platformer, not so noticeable if you're just fighting in final destination but clearly in the alternate mode with levels. Why not go the opposite way instead and make a classic Sonic game with beat'em up elements? (but not boring long fights like in Sonic Heroes)

    I had something like this in mind, but, linking with the above example, this could be done in a 2D platformer to keep the Sonic feel by making it an action RPG, just think about Wonder Boy/Monster World (or Zelda II for NES) and go a step further with a Sonic game (that's at least what I've had in mind in recent years), or you can do it like Terranigma, an action RPG where I was constantly running, jumping and attacking at some decent speed, quite like what you do playing as Sonic in Smash Bros but from the usual top-down perspective of SNES RPGs.

    ***

    To answer directly to the topics title, it would be any game I've thinking of making myself but haven't because I'm alone in that, so essentially the game I would make if I worked at sega, had freedom to do anything and a team following my command. I have a bit of everything, including that RPG-like classic title with its various character classes and approaches to lead or support roles that keeps the traditional single button gameplay but adds optional buttons to do more varied stuff like having an Advance Amy or a Cocoa Island Tails playstyle, allow elemental shields skills for everyone and for different situations, etc. I in fact had planned a joke trailer for that game that aligns well with the "girls only" concept, though the only girls there are Amy and Omelette (the fake title was "Amy Boom: Rise of Omelette" XD).

    Well, from a less "Me, me, me!" approach and a more specific one, I'd like a game that expands the lore of the mystic elements of Sonic's world, but those tied more clearly to the gameplay. For example, Chaos and the other monsters of the week no, but the Phantom Ruby would be a yes because it's another mysterious jewel, and previous mysterious jewels affect gameplay and the ending you get; the Phantom Ruby doesn't make the cut because it's a plot-only mcguffin, but they could right that wrong in the next game. Think about the Chaos Rings from Chaotix, for example: while they are still chaos things like the emeralds, and they're still giant rings even if they're not made of gold, the fact that chaos energy crystallized into that shape gives further importance to both of those things and ties them more, making the classic lore stronger with that small detail. I liked that potential plot for Xtreme where the Boobowskys were a lineage of ring forgers too.

    From a gameplay perspective, a "game" that periodically got additional campaigns, being more like an engine and a menu where you choose the campaign (full game) you want to play would be interesting. A Sonic "Steam" of sorts, but with all games sharing the same engine so engine updates happen for all of them and not just the latest one published, yet they don't have to make the code time and again, just have a devkit for designing levels and cutscenes. In other words, sort of what the community already does with ROM hacks and Mania mods but on the official side of things. It would be too much for a Super Sonic Maker but easy to work with for Sega devs.

    And yes, I'm talking from a classic perspective because I don't know what to ask in 3D, which is good because 3D Sonic is varied, but also bad because they usually botch even the best concepts. I might be able to answer the next year after trying Frontiers.

    ***

    I'ts even more metal if it's raining axes in the bad future. \m/ //-_-\\ \m/
     
  2. Strife

    Strife

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    Freedom Planet 2
    Having the option to play through the whole game as Tails without ever being required to switch to another character. Or Blaze.

    That's all. :)
     
  3. shilz

    shilz

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    Think Subspace but with just a little more Sonic flair. Enough to differentiate the two but not enough that you couldn't jump to it immediately after playing Smash.
    It's not a classic sonic game both because I don't think that would be able to deliver on all the fronts I'd want it to and because there are influences taken from it anyways. So maybe everyone is just able to roll in some manner, and force built up from it will impact damage done to characters or enemies when they collide.
    Since the game is structured around combat anyways, there's not much reason to worry about fights going on too long, because you'll be going at it different ways.
     
  4. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    It's still subspace? I didn't use that name because I thought they changed it in each game, and I haven't played a smash since brawl where it was subspace emissary, but that's the mode I was referring to, it was a platformer in its own right. What I was suggesting was that or freedom planet but less deviated from the standard classic formula and with RPG elements so it would fit both of your suggestions in a single game (you could have duels). As I said, I had that concept in mind already and even noticed it could be adapted to become a 2D version of PSO, for example (2D PSO with a classic Sonic engine is also on my wishlist. :rolleyes:).
     
  5. Crappy Blue

    Crappy Blue

    Knuckles' Chaotix is a perfect game with no flaws Member
    It is still Subspace in that no Smash game since Brawl has attempted a game mode like Subspace, which is an understandable thing to miss if you haven't played those games and haven't been around conversations on them.
     
  6. shilz

    shilz

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    The closest we got to it was in the 3ds version of 4 where there was a mode called Smash Run that had you battling enemies seperately from 3 other players or computers while collecting stat bonuses for 5 minutes and then competing in a random final battle that could be as simple as a timed battle or as wild as racing in a smaller platformer challenge.
    In all honesty I'd like to have something like that too just because it's easy to pour a lot of time in.
    The stuff they put in its place on the Wii U and Switch could just never compete, because they really wouldn't let it (but also probably because testing something like it for every character would be a nightmare)
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
  7. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    Oh, I thought they made a new adventure of that kind for each game even if it was shorter or clunkier.

    Back on topic, I forgot I also wanted a Sonic game that plays like Jet Set Radio, something that could in fact habe been a proper kind of open world with Sonic, if you ask me. Just having an environment (and engine) made for grinding, wall-running, etc. and with a flowing level design to enjoy all of that would be amazing.
     
  8. pkderbar

    pkderbar

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    Another idea I'd like to toy around with is procedurally generated levels or level chunks played out Mario 35 style with the last remaining player winning.
     
  9. Technically Inept

    Technically Inept

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    Personally, I’d just like them ti pick up something like SRB2

    Some people I’ve run into say that Sonic is too hard to control in that game, having too much weight. But I actually quite like it.

    Like having to manage your speed in a racing game when your coming up on turns so as to be able to turn sharp enough to obtain a good racing line, you have to manage and your control your momentum mid air so as to land on platforms in that game.

    it’s fun and satisfying to do, and not really something that happens anywhere else in the series. It could potentially happen in the Classics, as they do have actual weight and momentum to them. However, if you are going at the speeds needed in the air to wear hou’d need to worry about slowing down at the correct point to land on a platform in tbe 2D games, the platform you need to land on will probably come on screen and then shoot offscreen faster than you could slow down. You’d overshoot it. This is because of the Classic’s limited visibility.

    I like that the game doesn’t focus too much on automation, not even having loops. Some would say that this is because of technical limitations, and they are likely correct, but I honestly don’t think loops serve any meaningful purpose in 3D.

    If in the 2D games you couldn’t press jump at the right time while traveling through them, slamming down after you went halfway for more speed, I’d personally say they wouldn’t serve any purpose there either. Some say it’s an obstacle, but put simply it is an obstacle that is overcome by holding right.

    Or if you weren’t going fast enough, simply stopping, pressing down, and firing off a spin dash.

    I could see if there was some situational mechanic that you could use to accelerate rapidly if a loop came on screen and you saw that uou didn’t have enough speed. Then quickly activating such a mechanic would be a reaction challenge. But as is, no such test of skill exist.

    Correct me if I am wrong in saying that.

    I also like how there is no homing attack, which kills momentum or automated dispatching enemies. I’d argue that the game also shows how pointless and unnecessary a homing attack is if you don’t stick enemies over bottomless pits or make it mandatory to fight them.

    And if you truly were having an issue, you could use center view to lock on to an enemy, pointing the camera ar them. Still, just pressing jump twice would shoot you over the enemy. You would have to jump, wait until you fell bout level with them, and then use the move. It gives a satisfying bounce and doesn’t kill your momentum.
     
  10. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    You're at least partially wrong, as there were loops already in Sonic 1, where spindash didn't existe and there wasn't always an easy way to get momentum to go through the loop. They were indeed an obstacle there. I've never intentionally used that "jump halfway at the right time to get extra speed", but I've have indeed fought out loops t use it as ramps to jump from, and the terrain layer swap trick to make them work in 2D also generated moments where they became a closed gate if you wanted to backtrack, so it has more uses as both a help and an obstacle than you think, at least in 2D. Now, of course, they could have been automated like 8-bit games managed them to feel the most authentic possible and made them feasible in such a system at the same time, but I'd argue the spectacle of going through a loop is more satisfying if you can decide to go through the loop or not, if there's more to it than just go through the loop, which, as you can see, there is.

    Now, on the 3D side, they would have even more use if done right, but there's the issue of how to properly control the game when going through them without that automation. I probably agree with you there's no need to them if they're gonna be either automated or messy to control, but an occasional loop to have some spectacle doesn't hurt, and the games that feature these automated loops have more important issues that having these short setpieces.

    I'll add something: there's been some variation in the loops that made them feel distinct between levels and games, but I think they haven't been explored enough in 2D games to give them the depth they should aim to have. I've been doing research in this regard, and some resulting loops become quite tricky to develop and fun to go through. I'll post some examples in the future for reference, but I haven't finished what I wanted to do before showing them, so I'm sorry I can backup my statements atm.
     
  11. ChaddyFantome

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    Can I ask where the idea that loops were meant to be anything more than just a cool liking set piece comes from? From the research I've done, I can't help but conclude it's all they ever were. And looking at the series as it goes in the Classics, the devs seemed to design the levels more and more around loops being harder and harder to get stuck at or fail to get through.
     
  12. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    The devs put them there, and the physics, and everything else, but it's up to the players to experience them and decide what they mean to them, which means, to us. If Sonic Team didn't thought anything more than "this is cool!", well, ok, but I had more to say about them since the engine and level design allowed me to experience them in more ways than the straightforward one. To put another example, the "S" shaped tunnels in green hill are supposed to be traversed downwards, and there's some automation in them, yet they still allow to go up and backwards if you want, albeit with a lot more difficulty, of course, and I used to do that a lot. The devil's in the details, they say, and everything in these games can be more than what you see, which I find marvelous.
     
  13. ChaddyFantome

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    I think my issue is when we do so to a point where we start to assert militantly that these little niggles we love about the game that exist not out of intent of design are fundamental aspects of the games' design, and that other games have failed to adhere to the fundamental elements of the original games design by not having them, or even just implementing things in a different manner.

    I've heard this talking point about loops primary reason for being in the game being obstacles multiple times asserted as a basis for why, for example, the way loops are implemented in a myriad of games both 2D and 3D are fundamentally bad and a sign of the devs either failing to understand what their purpose was to begin with or as a "crutch" for not being able to do them "properly" for instance. Or the famous "Sonic being about going fast was just a myth created by advertisers! He was never actually supposed to be about goin fast. People were just tricked by marketing and Sonic X's theme!" talking point, which, quite frankly is one of the bigger lies in the discourse surrounding the franchise and falls apart even after a minute amount of research...

    It becomes hard to have an honest discussion about the games and their design, when it seems people are often more interested in talking about what they desire to proclaim the games SHOULD be about to the exclusion of anything else, rather than what they are and or can explore from a design standpoint. At least from my experience being involved in the fandom.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2022
  14. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    Seriously, don't do this, there's a difference between the speed being part of Sonic's identity and using that as an excuse for making a shallow game that doesn't bother in doing fundamentals right or negating any other aspects of the classic games that also matter. When people say "It's not about speed!" is because there's more to it than running blind through a linear corridor, and the first games applied physics and racing principles to the games to play an actual platformer instead of either just running or just doing some basic platforming depending on the current section of the level. Going fast is not just reaching mach speed, it's also never having to halt and mantaining a decent speed at every moment. The real issue with "going fast", thus, is each individual has a different interpretation of what it means for them and for the games.
     
  15. This is the real crux of the issue tbh. "Speed" is such a broad term when you really get down to it and has been applied to Sonic in various ways since his inception, and as such, fans have all walked away with different ideas and interpretations about it. I've talked with fans who couldn't click with the Classic games but absolutely loved the Boost games simply because of how the two games handled speed. We can argue about the validity of it but some fans really do just want to watch Sonic go really really fast and not put much thought into it. Alternatively, I've been told that Sonic inherently being able to hit Mach 1 and guiding him through levels is a more interesting use of speed than needing for Sonic to manipulate the environment to achieve the same result.

    So yea, it really is down to one's interpretation. I feel like a large part is because Sega have slowly but surely shifted the way Sonic's speed has been portrayed; originally Sonic felt like a hedgehog who just happened to be faster than average; all of his abilities were based around being a ball and rolling, traits generally associated with a hedgehog. After Sonic Adventure though his Hedgehog traits were slowly faded out in favor of emphasizing his speed and action traits. His proportions became more "human" so to speak and now he's more or less a Shonen Action hero who vaguely resembles a hedgehog. And to be fair, the Alternative media were leaning into that aspect long before the games adopted it.

    While the Modern games' interpretation of Sonic's speed isn't inherently bad, it has led to more issues in game design as the devs seem more focused on making Sonic faster as opposed to how he gets fast, but they've been marketing the character that way for so long at this point, they can't really go back on it now without catching flak from the fanbase for Sonic being "too slow". On another note, I could argue that with Sonic's overall shift towards cinematic set pieces, while it's made his character more marketable to the target audience, it's kind of robbed the series a bit of it's central identity in favor of something a bit more generic.

    Think about it; there are a million action heroes with super speed in media, but having a hero who needs to rely on the environment to navigate and relying on their inherent racial physical traits is much more specific of a power to me.
     
  16. ChaddyFantome

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    I don't remember saying otherwise? I don't think saying "Sonic isn't about going fast" is a particularly good or constructive method of conversation in this respect, and only serves to obfuscate and confuse in practice.

    Ill be candid here. It sounds to me more like a concern over whether the game one enjoys is at risk of being accused of being "shallow" moreso than anything, which I quite frankly find silly. Entertainment is entertainment. Games should be enjoyed to be enjoyed as opposed to present oneself as some form of connoisseur or sophisticate to ones peers, no? My point here isn't to tell anyone what I think about the speed in Sonic or what they should or shouldn't like about Sonic to begin with, but to highlight the tendency for people to do just what you described, and to me those talking point being just that...in opposition to what the developers have stated...going as far as to claim the devs don't understand the point of the games they made and/or promoted the games dishonestly in accordance to what the intent behind the design was.
    We can't really engage in an honest discussion about what aspects we personally like and would like to see built upon when we can't even be honest about what the basic design principles behind the games were.

    As for whether or not such a thing would even be adequate for describing the series as anything of the sort as "shallow", I don't even agree? SuperMarioBros' jump was implemented because Miyamoto believed in the merit of the innate satisfaction of the freeform jump in 2D sidescrollers. I'd be remise to call the SMB Jump shallow for this reason. My sentiment goes to going fast in Sonic in the same regard.
     
  17. trakker

    trakker

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    If they cared about specifically pandering to me, We'd have a 3D Sonic and Blaze game In a more refined SA1/SA2 gameplay style, so no boost, still fast, but overall more control. I don't like the idea of an open-open world Sonic game, but i don't like what is essentially racetracks either, something in the middle is nice. I like a fairly clear way to be pointed, but you can go wide and find secrets on the way.

    3 gameplay styles. Sonic and Blaze control mostly the same, Blaze can bring her dimensions version of Shade or whatever to facilitate power routes, and Sonic brings Tails for fly routes

    Only 12 stages, (plus a final zone) each character gets 3 stages each story wise, but once you've done a stage it can be completed by any of the 3 gameplay styles (4 characters) for repeatability,(Sonic, Blaze, Shade & Tails) that puts it to 48 runs, have 5 missions per stage per character that's 240 missions, that's a fair amount of content i think =P

    And uhh, throw in a Chao Garden for good measure, to keep you going back for collectables in stages, add a mobile phone counterpart so you can sling Chao between your console/PC and your phone.
     
  18. Prototype

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    I'd like another expanded classic style game like Mania with original zones and new level gimmicks that use movement and momentum in interesting ways.

    However, I'd love optional incentives for exploration outside of the hidden special stage rings (but I'd still keep those).

    One idea I had was to include the 3D Blast Flicky mechanic. In each level, while you have your regular badniks to pop and release animals, have 5 hidden badniks throughout a level which contain a special Flicky. This would not only incentivise level exploration, but would also incentivise actually defeating badniks instead of avoiding them, since gaining points haven't really been focused on much either.

    If you finish a level with 5 Flickies in tow, you get a Flicky point bonus. If you finish with 5 Flickies AND 50+ Rings then you get an end of level Ring a la Sonic 1 to jump into which leads to a different style Special Stage for a non-Chaos Emerald bonus of some type.

    Incentivise gaining points (and keeping rings) for your end of level tally by converting points to a currency at the end of a stage that can be spent outside of a level on upgrades for your characters like extra moves.

    For example, Sonic has moves he can perform with the right shields. Maybe you could buy a suitable Fire Shield move for Tails that gives him a corkscrew drop (like downward propeller Mario in NSMB). Basically expandable movesets a la the Streets of Rage 4 DLC that expands how your favourite character can move.

    Put a somewhat sizeable cost on each move and It would encourage replayability and figuring out how to maximize your score.

    The Cool Bonus was a Cool addition, but there are so many ways you could incentivise actually gaining scores and getting good, so people don't just cheese bosses in invincibility frames and end a level with one ring with no negative outcome.
     
  19. qwertysonic

    qwertysonic

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    That could be a good idea for large 3D games where the argument is that you could just ignore enemies entirely. They sort of did this with Lost World, but didn't really commit to it. If we made 3D sonic more of a 3D platformer/collectathon this could work.
     
  20. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    I agree you haven't said the opposite, but you're acting as if not some, but everyone having that kind of opinion is being silly, which is quite disrespectful, and you're doing so by presenting yourself not so different of those "conoisseurs", only in this case acting as if you were on an upper level compared to those, but still being equally silly by your metrics. I shouldn't have answered and derail the topic even further but I see that fundamental issue in your point of view and, while I agree entertainment is just that and a game succeeds if people find entertainment in it as that's its purpose, anyone has the right to tell why they find something enjoyable or not with any depth they want without someone saying that conversation is "silly".

    Apologies to everyone else for extending this off-topic.