I want your maps

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Black Squirrel, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    I want, your maps.


    So this is currently the best map we have of Chemical Plant Zone from the Sonic 2 Nick Arcade prototype:

    [​IMG]
    (Full resolution - you can almost see where to go)

    Any chance of a proper full size one? And indeed, proper full size ones for every map in the prototype? And other prototypes?

    Here's one category.

    I kind-of feel we should be doing better than one map from the Simon Wai prototype after nearly 20 years, and even this one is missing objects (although it's a lot better than nothing!).


    My plan is to get some more thorough game comparisons on the wiki. Perhaps a handy dandy template that can flip between prototype and final maps on the fly. Something better than what we have now, which is nothing at all. I mention this now because I'm in the process of merging some of the old SWS2B/S2B content into the main wiki proper, and we've got a set of small maps that aren't as helpful as they could be.



    btw this isn't just Sonic 2 - the layout changes between Sonic 3 and Sonic 3&K aren't documented either. Nor are those early Sonic 3D prototypes where there's all this extra space, or Knuckles in Sonic 2, or anything from the Chaotix or Sonic CD prototypes - there's quite a lot we're missing. Some maps we do have were also shrunk down due to technical reasons back in the day - I don't think those limitations exist anymore (Egg Gauntlet here is 23,000 pixels long and the wiki seems to be coping).

    Oh and also maps you might think are redundant, such as Genocide City Zone. It might end up coming out as a big empty rectangle but it's good to see exactly how empty it is. And leftover maps such as Hidden Palace in Sonic 2 final - eeeeeveeerything.

    The only missing maps you don't need to worry about are the randomised chunks for Blue Sphere - they're still queued up on the server waiting for a switch to be flicked.
     
  2. Overlord

    Overlord

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    My understanding is a lot of these maps are generated from level editors - just how many protos do editors like SonED or SonLVL support?
     
  3. Okamikurainya

    Okamikurainya

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    Considering Mania's origins and such, would level maps from Retro Sonic, Sonic Nexus or Project Mettrix qualify?
     
  4. MainMemory

    MainMemory

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    I believe SonLVL has support for just about any proto we have, and at least the Sonic 2 Nick Arcade and Simon Wai protos have INI file sets somewhere. However, in order to generate proper maps, we should to include objects, which requires someone to go through every object used in the levels and figure out how to properly represent it in the editor. I think Sonic 2 Final is mostly or entirely done, and Sonic 1 maybe also? IIRC at one point I started replacing some of the maps on the wiki, but then I stopped because there weren't enough object definitions. I could put together a zip of all the levels from S1, S2, and KiS2 if you want, although I'm not sure if we want to include any of the fancy graphics SonLVL uses for invisible debug objects, like pathswappers and invisible blocks.

    Someone is currently working on definitions for Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but as you can imagine, that will be a more long-term project, but we'll get there eventually. Sonic CD is technically supported, but you'd have to figure out how to extract the data first, and I don't think anyone's jumping at the opportunity to write object definitions for it. Crackers and Chaotix on the other hand, I have no plans to support, although SonED2 does support Chaotix.

    Also I'd kind of like to replace the S3K Special Stage maps with ones that have a proper background, and a bit of space between the spheres.

    Looks like we're also missing maps for Mania's Bonus and Special Stages.
     
  5. BSonirachi

    BSonirachi

    Opa-Opa takes flight! Member
    I once made maps of all of the layout changes for the Slot Machine Bonus Stage from Sonic 3C 0408 to S&K 0608 for The Cutting Room Floor, and I got 3C 0408's map up on the wiki. I'd be happy to get the rest up on there.
     
  6. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    I'd prefer to prioritise "official" games. We do have a handful of fan game maps but I'm not overly convinced they should be there.


    I was thinking last night that we might benefit from having sprite sheets for the 128x128 level chunks or 16x16 tiles, just in case anything changed. I'm not entirely sure we'd ever use them, but I know there's a couple of chunks from Emerald Hill Zone that are only used in the Nick Arcade prototype, and we should be documenting that. Nice to be thorough.

    We have templates that can do the necessary cropping - see Puyo Puyo.
     
  7. Glaber

    Glaber

    Has Beaten Sonic Genesis for GBA Oldbie
    If you're looking for the 128x128 tiles, The spriter's resource already has a whole bunch.
     
  8. Fred

    Fred

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    What do you think they dumped them with?
     
  9. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    Fifty paces towards the sun, cooking beets. Wiki Sysop
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    You're not wrong, but the plan would be to have direct rips from the game, laid out in the order in which the chunks are stored, with none of the extra fluff that those sorts of sprite sheets tend to acquire.

    If I was making a fan game, those sheets on tSR might be great, but we want what's actually there, not just what's deemed useful to someone.
     
  10. Fred

    Fred

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    This is already what they're moving towards -- very slowly, though.
     
  11. BSonirachi

    BSonirachi

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    Might I inquire on whether maps with object layouts are appropriate to have? I ask of this since I did upload a few maps from Sonic Advance 3 I managed to rip from the game, complete with object layouts (especially for the Bonus Stages where you have to destroy all the badniks).
     
  12. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    Fifty paces towards the sun, cooking beets. Wiki Sysop
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    I'm not even sure I'd go so far as saying "moving" - Techo submitted those zip files in 2009/2010, and I don't think anyone else has copied him.

    But honestly tSR aren't really at fault for not doing so - they're hosting graphics people actually want in a format they can understand. If you were developing a Sonic fan game or something I can see it being quite a hassle to have to manage 263 images, rather than one big sheet with bits you're likely to actually use.



    Those zips are a good fallback but I'd still probably have to acquire or make a tool that stitches them all together into one big image for the sake of the wiki.




    And yes those Advance 3 maps are great :)
     
  13. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    http://info.sonicretro.org/Category:Fan_game_resources

    I knew I'd seen something.

    So it turns out the GBA/DS Sonic games are already covered. I'll be moving these files shortly so I can coordinate things better, but this is basically what I was thinking for all 2D Sonic games, including prototypes. And 16x16 tilesets (or whatever), in addition to full maps.
     
  14. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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  15. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    Fifty paces towards the sun, cooking beets. Wiki Sysop
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  16. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    TBH I'm not quite sure what you're asking for in this topic, Black Squirrel. Are you asking for pics with chunk definitions, as your Sonic Advanced link shows? Or are you asking for tile maps themselves? Or level layouts with objects includes? Like MM said, those are generally made with level editors, surly SonED or SonLVL could do either?

    However, in the spirit of the topic, I have a utility that can do all this for you, although truthfully I see no reason to not just use SonLVL. Additionally, it wouldn't be too hard with my tool to write a method for checking differences between defifitions. I just need to know specifically what you're looking for.

    Edit: and if you are asking for tile sheets, you said you would like them in the order they appear in, in the rom, i.em tile 02 follows tile 01 follows tile 00, etc. What about uncompressed tiles in rom used by pattern load cues for background animations? Those have a weird ordering and reside in different locations than the normal art. If the tile sheet is the a reference to each tile as they appear in vram, then these animated tiles would be left out.

    In my program i visualize those tiles in an entirely separate tile map. Additionally, the spots in vram tile sheets where these animated tile patterns are supposed to be copied to appear as holes in the tile sheet.
     
  17. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    We want absolutely everything. Maps, chunks, tiles, extra gubbins (maybe even palettes if you can work out how to display them on the wiki) - as much as possible, from as many builds as possible, from as many Sonic games as possible. If the art is stored in different places, the wiki uploads should reflect this.
     
  18. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Let me see if I can contribute some later today, then.

    Regarding palettes: would you prefer raw values, or translated into actual colors?

    EDIT: Actually, regarding chunks, blocks and tiles, perhaps it would be better if I exported every chunk and block and tile in these games as an individual graphic? When they're arranged in, say, a large image map, it can give the impression that these chunks (and tiles, and such) are stored in a grid, when they are actually a 1 dimensional array. Exporting chunks, blocks, and tiles as individual images would allow the wiki to order the tiles in unique ways.

    Would you prefer all the chunks, blocks and tiles in a single image, or separated out? Neither is a problem.

    And just checking -- you would like chunk definitions, block definitions, and individual tiles, no?
     
  19. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    Palettes translated into actual colours, so that there's something to look at (it can be a really small image with single pixels - we can handle the rest).

    I'd prefer to have one image for all the 128x128 (or 256x256) chunks, one for all the 16x16 blocks and one for the 8x8 tiles.

    You have a choice how you want to arrange them in the image - you can put them in a massive long line, or have them in rows of 8/16/32/whatever. We don't need each tile uploaded individually - not only would the upload system mean it would take you years to do, we can use wiki templates to crop the image when necessary, achieving the same effect.


    And of course anything else you think is worthwhile documenting. I'd love to get more technical details on the wiki, but it's a bit outside my expertise.
     
  20. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Cool cool, no problems at all. I was thinking that, if we exported tiles as individual graphics, perhaps we could do some cool stuff like having blocks formed on the fly from actual tiles, and having chunks fromed on the fly from actual blocks... but then that sort of becomes a much more complex project. And there would also have to take into account flags that flip tiles and blocks in individual definitions and such.