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I like Sonic 4.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Winins, Dec 12, 2021.

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  1. Forte

    Forte

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    Pardon derail from the topic itself, but are there any hacks/fangames, remaking Sonic 4 as a genesis game? I remember one project. Starting a few years back but not finishing.
     
  2. CHRdutch

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    Sonic the Hackable (A.K.A. "A generic Sonic 1 ROMhack")
    There are multiple Sonic 4 remake projects out there and most of them are fangames and only have Splash Hill. :psyduck:

    To start with the most basic one, there's Sonic 4: The Genesis, which has Splash Hill Act 1 and a Labyrinth Zone act with Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 3's layout. There are cutscenes as well

    Then there's Sonic 4 the reimagined adventure, where you have Splash Hill Act 1 with more drastic level design changes. This one also has cutscenes.

    Next up, there's Sonic 95: Scrambled Eggs. This one features 3D animated cutscenes in a sort of 3D movie maker style and has 2 reimagined acts of Splash Hill.

    And finally there's + - a generic Sonic 1 ROM hack that took so much Sonic 4 inspiration that it imploded in on itself and is now a semi remake   Sonic the Hackable, which is a ROM hack that features 3 acts of Splash Hill, a buggy Marble Zone with different layouts and gimmicks as well as a different Spring Yard act 1 and 2.
    (Wow, there's even a thread :V)


    Those are all the released projects that I know of.
     
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  3. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    Quoted from the Frontiers thread:
    Every time the term "vocal minority" is brought up, what's really being said is "People who disagree with me have invalid opinions because what I perceive as the majority agrees with me." That's what really bugs me. It's just a lazy appeal without backing it up with data because, as is your point, there's not enough data one way or the other to somehow define the opinions of people who aren't vocal online.
     
  4. We're all guilty of it to be fair. Two users literally just did it two pages ago.
     
  5. shilz

    shilz

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    Heroes is interesting because I don't think anybody every really remembers the fact that it was billed as an attempt to bring the series back to its roots in efforts to keep things simple for all the new multiplatform players who have to be reminded of what Sonic is, and I think that's largely because they kind of did their own thing again anyways. Yeah, Special Stages, yeah, 2 acts and a boss, but also, new rpg-like level up mechanics introduced, more combat orented gameplay, 4 different (but similarly playing) stories, still the same score and rank focus from Adventure 2, it just felt like the series was taking everything they did before, and marrying it, and building upon it, and even with the detour to Shadow, they continued to build on it until we got 06, which SHOULD have been the ultimate, last sonic game you'll ever need (until we make the next one) but it was left playable only in a state to where most of the resemblance can only be examined in retrospect.

    And this is where a weird bit of my idea of Sonic fits in, Sonic, to me, has never felt like a singular concept, and I don't want it to be. I think part of what makes Mania so irritating to me is the fact that it's saying "We give up. We'll just do something that everyone will lap up without a second thought. Is it regressive? Is is made purely to spite everything that came after the Genesis games? who cares. We'll get the money anyways. And then we'll let everyone complain for years on end when they realize we're not doing it again."
    They essentially reinforced an idea of "This is what Sonic is" in the highest possible way, which makes it harder to sell the already hard to sell idea that the next Sonic is whatever they feel like making today and not the same thing they made yesterday, meaning Sonic Mania, despite its reception, is a mistep, recognized as a success, and resulting in everything in between to be reinterpreted as "misteps".
    When it comes to Sonic 4, I don't think I feel as strongly about it because the things it was released next to were confident in being "the next Sonic game" and it didn't seem like Sonic 4 was overstepping to the extent that they shot the other projects in the foot. it was just "A classic-styled sonic game" to the public, just as the Advance series was, and it didn't feel like some hostile takeover of the identity (sort of what Boom felt like in a way too! but even that started feeling like "A Sonic" with Fire and Ice.)
     
  6. Josh

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    So. Working with lifelong Sonic fans to create a game that directly followed up on the most well-regarded titles in the series was, in fact, a bad thing to do, because fans had been dreaming of it for so long and people loved it so much that it caused the many poorly-received games that came before it to be "reinterpreted" as failures. Is that the revisionist history we're going with today? :V

    (And on that note, I'm outta here for at least a few months. I love this place, but I think it's had an increasingly negative impact on my perspective the past two years or so. I'll be back when I'm in a better, healthier headspace. But until then, I hope you all have a happy new year!)
     
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  7. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I know, that's why Laura made the post I quoted and why I made my response. That phrase is thrown left and right on this forum and others all the time, and it's almost always just as stupid.
     
  8. This is such a flawed and terrible way to look at Mania's reception, and I say this as an "Adventure fan".

    Sonic Mania was a game Whitehead and crew wanted to make, they even got Iizuka's own backing in making it when it was originally just supposed to be a compilation of remixed levels. No, they didn't just wake up one day and decide "We're gonna make a game that makes every game before it look bad" and even if they did, why wouldn't you want your games to do better than the previous ones?????

    If you wanna be upset at someone, then redirect your ire towards Sega and Sonic Team for how badly they have mismanaged this series for so long and have continuously failed at living up to the legacy established by the Classic games, and needed to bring in an outside group to accomplish that. It's absolutely ludicrous to blame Whitehead for creating Mania and being upset for it...actually being good!!!???? It's like being mad at Capcom for creating Mega Man 9 and 10. Be upset at them for throwing the name Sonic 4 on a product that doesn't even try to be a followup on the game its sharing space with, be upset that they have continuously failed at giving Sonic a consistent identity.

    But the fact that some Sonic fans are actually mad at the games' success simply because it exposes how shit Sega have treated this series is absolutely wild to me, and then people wonder why I never have anything nice to say about this fandom. It's the only place I know where people are mad at a game for succeeding simply because it's not what they want. Two decades of mediocre to outright shit titles that have failed to hit the mark, and it's the one that's actually successful on all fronts that gets people upset? What the fuck?????
     
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  9. Blast Brothers

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    Sonic Mania espouses that the classic formula is good, but it doesn't really have anything to say about the 3D stuff. I don't think that Mania was ever meant to indicate "what Sonic is" or should be as a whole. Its objective is to show off the best of one style of Sonic- that's it. Moreover, saying that Mania was "something that everyone will lap up without a second thought" ignores how successful and creative the game was at achieving that objective. If anything, its commitment to only drawing on a few influences, and only introducing ideas that are congruent with those influences, actually seems to support the idea that Sega isn't trying to make Sonic "a singular concept". Don't forget that we've had multiple versions of the character officially and intentionally coexist for over a decade now.

    To that end, 2D and 3D Sonic are almost completely separate franchises at this point. I don't think a 2D game could make a statement about the 3D entries even if it wanted to, and vice versa. Now, if Sonic Team ever puts out that hypothetical "classics in 3D" game, and lets that style supplant Modern Sonic completely? That would certainly qualify as trying to wipe the post-Classic games from Sonic's identity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
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  10. It's like saying New Super Mario Bros. supplanted 3D Mario when it came out, and yet they still continuously made 3D Mario games afterwards. As popular as Mario and Zelda are compared to Sonic, their 2D and 3D entries tend to be just as vastly different as Sonic's tend to be. The main difference is that Mario and Zelda's 3D games are still functional and good even if they carry themselves differently from their 2D bretheren.

    3D Sonic very often fails at doing the basics, so its created the dichotomy that the series only works in 2D. The actual reality of the situation is that Sonic Team are just bad at making 3D games lol. And until they actually make a good 3D game that doesn't have a huge ass asterisk next to it, that's mindset is just gonna keep getting stronger.
     
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I can't say I'm not surprised to see Sonic Mania be called "a misstep" in a thread about Sonic 4.
     
  12. Laura

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    I'm not going to go too much into this but I don't think it's fair to say Mania is dunking on the modern games at all. It has a Colors reference in Studiopolis for a start. I think it is fair to call the game fairly conservative but jts not vindictive or anything.

    I also think it's kind of weird to say Sonic 4 was less egregious when it's whole marketing was built upon going away from Sonic missteps, which explicitly included 'not 3D' and 'no friends'. Although I think the game itself wasn't like that.

    I think sometimes the cynicism in sections of the fan base (I know what @Josh means is a bit much). If you felt that Mania wasn't to your tastes and you are sad that large parts of the fan base are clamouring for something you don't want then I do understand how that sucks. But that doesn't mean Mania as a game I'd out to get you!
     
  13. Pengi

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    This is incorrect. Here's what Christian Whitehead said:

    https://forums.sonicretro.org/index...ch-ps4-xbox-one-pc.35709/page-269#post-896459

    They're bad at making 2D games as well. The 2D levels in Sonic Forces and Lost World were decidedly Not Good. Even in overall good games like Sonic Generations or Sonic Colors, the 2D level design was strong but Sonic simply did not control nearly as well as he did in 1991. It's astounding.
     
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  14. shilz

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    It's not EXACTLY like that. When I say reinterpreted, I mean that it changes the perspective in a way that it probably wouldn't have been had things continued as normal. I'm more thinking that Mania cannibalized some good will the public could potentially have for the rest of the franchise's efforts. "Why should we care about Team Sonic Racing? Make Mania 2." Sure, it's one of the most well-regarded games in years, but it's a large monkey paw situation.


    Please don't take my statements as mean-spirted. I'm not even trying to say anything bad about the game itself. I wish you well.


    I'm not even sure how to address this because most of it is just personal perception getting in the way of looking at how things could be made objectively better from a marketing/brand perspective. Sure, fine, "greatest Sonic game since 2001", I get it, but I think it's counterproductive to try to take a cheap and easy way out by releasing a game that immitates almost beat for beat game design from 1992, instead of trying to prove the brand in other ways. and if you think this has anything to do with the Mania team in particular instead of being a criticism with SEGA/Sonic team's overall marketing and choice of release, not really, they're just doing a job.

    I think Sonic 4 at least tries to remind you that the past is the past instead of indulging entirely on "return to form", in the same vein as Advance and Rush and even Colors, which is a key difference there.

    Again, I'm not going into super rage mode with anything I've said, just more trying to examine and compare some aspects of the marketing and branding impacts around the two releases.
     
  15. Darkfire

    Darkfire

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    I enjoyed episode 1 on ios. Ironically
     
  16. People been telling me the opposite, thank you.

    And that's not the same as being bad. Definitely not up to the same level as the Classics, but like you said, still good enough in their own right. So their competence at 2D level design is mostly inconsistent, but overall doesn't hold a candle to the originals even at their best.
     
  17. But once again, do these complaints apply to every company that releases a new game in the style of their old ones? I once again bring up Mega Man 9 & 10, were Capcom being "Cheap and easy" in making those games? Was Metroid Dread "cheap and easy" for being a 2D game styled after the previous ones????

    I'm starting to feel like the real problem at hand is how the overall perception of 2D games has changed since the turn of the millennium. After the year 2000, 2D games were mostly relegated to handheld consoles or just small downloadable games, while all of the budget went into the big cinematic 3D titles. The indie game scene is also mostly held up by 2D titles in the vein as the ones in the 80's and 90's. So because of this, many people who grew up on gaming in this era came up with the impression that 2D games are lesser than the 3D ones.....even though 2D games were considered the standard long before 3D was a thing.

    Between Sonic 4 and Sonic Mania, the former was treated and marketed as a small budget title while all of the focus was on Sonic Colors at the time. Most of the noise about Sonic 4 came from the people on this site, who mostly came up on the 2D games, while everyone else just saw it as a stopgap, a sidegrade to Sonic Colors. Even in the wider Sonic community, there was just way more focus on Colors due in part to all of the marketing surrounding it. IIrc, Sonic 4 barely had any marketing around it. Or at least, any that I can really recall, I mostly kept up with it due to my love for 2D Sonic, but I cannot recall how much attention Sega gave it while I can remember with clarity the hype cycle for Sonic Colors.

    Sonic Mania is treated as a main title by both the marketing team and of course the people who love 2D Sonic...but to some people who are of the impression that 2D games are "inferior" to their 3D counterparts...well here we are a few years removed from Mania's release and now have fans claiming it's "regressive" or "stagnating" Sonic.....even though it's literally a follow up to what's generally considered the best game in the series.
     
  18. MykonosFan

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    I have to fully agree with this. Some folk really tend to project their own thoughts about the franchise onto Mania and the developer's intentions when it simply isn't the case.

    I'm not so sure what I'm reading with parts of this thread. Sonic Mania would make people not want Team Sonic Racing? What? I appreciate those who are at least trying to keep things related to Sonic 4 in here. I don't want to kill the discussion as it's happening, so I'm gonna hold off a bit on asking everyone to go back to talking about it in an obligatory way, but some of this just has me like :psyduck:
     
  19. corneliab

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    I feel like it's time to stop coddling what is some real abject bullshit being spewed here.

    Somebody genuinely arguing that Sonic Mania has been a monkey's paw for the Sonic brand doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, full-stop. No, it's one of the few examples of Sega putting out a Sonic product that wasn't constantly at odds with itself. The idea that it was a "cheap and easy" endeavor is nothing but LAUGHABLE considering that something like Mania is uniquely difficult to make. Mania could only ever be a thing since it was made from outsiders that had passion as hobbyists with deep reverse-engineered knowledge of the nuances of the classic games. They actually studied what made those classic games work as opposed to Sonic Team proper that has long since thrown out everything in those games to repeatedly start completely over.

    Other Sonic games being perceived as poor in relation to Mania, and people RIGHTFULLY BEING AWARE OF THAT DISPARITY IN QUALITY, is an indictment on Sega and Sonic Team only. Like no shit is the proper successor to Sonic 3 & Knuckles, commonly thought of to be the best game in the series, going to make a lot of Sonic's output look questionable. That Sonic Team Racing example is especially stupid though seeing as how that game got dismissed for being poor in relation to its well-liked direct predecessors, particularly All-Star Racing Transformed. Positioning Mania as the one to dampen enthusiasm on STR is disingenuous as best and wildly unaware at worst.

    Just fucking stop. Or get blocked idk, either is fine with me. Done tolerating this nonsense.
     
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  20. Its literally on the same level as David Jaffe's words about Metroid Dread and trying his damnest to downplay it's success as much as possible. And he was rightfully called a dumbass for it.

    Yea, it does feel like people are projecting a lot of personal feelings and biases into a situation that's pretty clear cut; if you like Sonic Mania is overshadowing the rest of the franchise's output then hey...maybe...you should take your ire to Sonic Team for making bad games, and not at the game that actually succeeded in what it set out to do.
     
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