Humans in Mobius besides Robotnik

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by VB.NET, Oct 1, 2010.

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  1. 0r4ng3

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    <!--quoteo(post=515054:date=Oct 9 2010, 05:21 AM:name=Ranger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ranger @ Oct 9 2010, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=515054">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=513580:date=Oct 4 2010, 03:13 AM:name=HunterTSF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HunterTSF @ Oct 4 2010, 03:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=513580">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's quite evident that the Small Animals are not at all capable of constructing all of the marble temples and industrious urban landscapes littered across the island - the Flicky that Amy encountered in Sonic Adventure wasn't capable of doing anything beyond what a normal bird could do, either mentally or physically. The ancient ruins could be chalked up to past anthropomorphic animal civilizations akin to the Knuckles Tribe, sure, but the cities of Spring Yard and Scrap Brain were most definitely of human creation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I still don't get this argument. Why couldn't present anthropomorphic animal civilizations build those cities? There's bound to be a bunch of them, Sonic and friends have to had come from somewhere. Why couldn't Spring Yard City and the like be inhabited by a bunch of fancharacters or something?

    I'll give you Scrap Brain, Wing Fortress, etc. though. Eggbotnikman definitely built those.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And Eggman as well, no? It's a double edged argument. Sure unseen animals like Sonic could have constructed that, but so could have unseen humans like Eggman. He had to come from somewhere as well.

    I'd say the games like to that construction is mostly done by humans. Sonic as a more advanced type of creature than the small animals is intelligent, but he also starts in Green Hill and Emerald Hill, a major green outlet. Then the buildings of Starlight and Chemical Plant resemble what we have as well. If they were more wacky looking, then it could a different vibe that animals had constructed them, but since Eggman also constructs wacky things (Launch Base), this might not be that correct. But Spring Yard is a crazy place with no apparent purpose and the Little Planet is fuelled by wacky technology in the Good Futures. I suppose intelligent animals could do that. Of course there's a huge leap of logic here, assuming animals are the ones that wacky instead of humans.
     
  2. In one episode of AoStH, Sonic had a birthday party with human guests.

    Seems like most of the humans on Mobius come from AoStH rather than the comics.
     
  3. Namo

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    Not true - According the the part of the comics that followed the Sonic Adventure storyline, there's a seperate part on Mobius thats inhabited by humans and non-anthropomorphic Animals.

    To get to station square, Sonic and the freedom fighters fly there via aircraft. Originally, the humans reactions to Sonic and the rest of them are like "What are those" etc. but they grow to like Sonic.

    After the arc is over, Sonic and the freedom fighters return to Knothole.
     
  4. The KKM

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    Pah! You think this is confusing? Try explaining if there are humans in StC's Mobius.

    There aren't? Then what about Grimer, or that ice Doctor? And how did Kintobor appear? And the super-heroes from that Tekno story?
     
  5. serpx

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    Regarding any humanoid graphical figures in textiles of the classic games, I'm sure they were put in there moreso for design, rather than for story.
     
  6. Overlord

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    <!--quoteo(post=515874:date=Oct 11 2010, 10:50 AM:name=The KKM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The KKM @ Oct 11 2010, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=515874">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pah! You think this is confusing? Try explaining if there are humans in StC's Mobius.

    There aren't? Then what about Grimer, or that ice Doctor? And how did Kintobor appear? And the super-heroes from that Tekno story?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Grimer was green, he's hardly a human. =P As for Kintobor, I believe StC followed the existing Sonic backstory regarding him crash-landing in a spaceship IE he was from another planet. Wasn't an StC reader at the time of your last sentence.
     
  7. Mainman

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    <!--quoteo(post=517394:date=Oct 14 2010, 09:31 PM:name=Overlord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Overlord @ Oct 14 2010, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=517394">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=515874:date=Oct 11 2010, 10:50 AM:name=The KKM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The KKM @ Oct 11 2010, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=515874">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pah! You think this is confusing? Try explaining if there are humans in StC's Mobius.

    There aren't? Then what about Grimer, or that ice Doctor? And how did Kintobor appear? And the super-heroes from that Tekno story?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Grimer was green, he's hardly a human. =P As for Kintobor, I believe StC followed the existing Sonic backstory regarding him crash-landing in a spaceship IE he was from another planet. Wasn't an StC reader at the time of your last sentence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->StC never explicitly stated where Dr. Ovi Kintobor came from, only telling the origin story from the point when Sonic first discovers the underground lab that Kintobor is operating out of (Issues #8 and #71). Limiting the facts entirely to what the comic tells us, it's still a possibility that Kintobor originated on Mobius instead of coming from Earth, but since the comic considers Sonic 1 and 2 (16-bit) to be completely canon, the spaceship theory is also valid.

    There is, however, a perspective of the origin story which conclusively proves that Kintobor teleported to Mobius from Earth, while also causing a snowball effect which proves other theories of the continuity, relevant to this topic, to be correct. <a href="http://www.stconline.co.uk/back/" target="_blank">StC Online</a>, a fan-made webcomic continuation of StC's storylines which has the personal approval of the original comic's key staff ('unofficially official'), <a href="http://www.stconline.co.uk/back/234/234/s1.htm" target="_blank">gives us a perspective on events as told by Shadow</a> (who's explaining his own origin), which implies that Kintobor accidentally discovered Mobius when he bumbled into a spacial anomaly during a hike to the shops (literally hiking, given the backpack he has), which leads to previously known plot events such as:
    <ul><li>His discovery of the underground cache of six Chaos Emeralds within Emerald Hill (the Grey Emerald, the 7th one, was on Angel Island at the time).</li><li>Asking the brown-coloured, pre-super-speed Sonic to power the lab's generator via a treadmill (on which he breaks the sound barrier and obtains his powers).</li><li>Inventing the Star Posts as a means of travelling quickly around Mobius (as well as to the Special Zone).</li><li>Kintobor's long-term plan of using the <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/ROCC" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">ROCC</a>, the Chaos Emeralds and lots of Rings to literally absorb all the evil energy on Mobius, then safely destroy the energy, thereby creating a utopian world with no evil. This plan required all 7 emeralds to perform safely, so he held off on attempting it with just 6 until the very last minute.</li><li>The pseudo-accident which led to Kintobor absorbing most of the collected evil energy, as well as a rotten egg that Sonic dropped, thereby transforming Ovi Kintobor into the egg-like Dr. Ivo Robotnik.</li><li>Kintobor's former mind, knowledge and personality somehow becoming imprinted on a Ring during the accident, which is recovered and then used as the 'AI' core of the Freedom Fighters' computer systems.</li></ul>...And previously unmentioned details such as:
    <ul><li>Recreating the key technologies of human civilisation to let the Mobians create better lives for themselves (only unknown regions like the Special Zone are implied to have been advanced in terms of civilisation/technology prior to Kintobor's arrival).</li><li>Successfully establishing contact to the Special Zone, specifically the Equinox research lab, thereby allowing Kintobor and Sonic to meet the Omni Viewer.</li><li>Ties to key plot events, in the relative past and future, which won't make much sense unless you know of them already (and that I won't list here).</li></ul>Because StC considers the events of the 16-bit Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 games to be completely canon, the ties established by this version of the origin explain exactly why there was human-esque architecture in some zones that had no clear indication of belonging to Robotnik; in the case of cities and the like, they could either have been built by the Mobians with the knowledge and resources that Kintobor provided, or by immigrants from the newly-contacted Special Zone more-or-less serving the same function. In the case of ruins, they are almost certainly remnants from the Echidnia/Drakon era of Mobius' history, which the modern Mobians barely touched.

    StC also likes to imply that Mobius is actually Earth in the future, with the only 'wobble' in the theory being Amy and Tekno's method of arrival the first time they visit Earth in issue #114 (you could explain it by saying that the Kaamdaarn spaceship they receive can travel through time, or that something in outer space caused them to travel into the past without them realising and/or acknowledging it on-panel). At the very least, the two planets are very heavily tied together, given the common dominant languages, the existing culture and species in regions that Kintobor never encountered and/or had a major initial impact upon (The Nameless Zone, Shanazar, the Special Zone), how much interaction inhabitants of the two worlds secretly have in the later issues, and the identical symptoms of death and decay that Mobius shows when the Plax enact a plan to syphon the life energy of Earth. Therefore, the humans and most human-like characters of StC could have come either one (or a mix) of two sources: Either they already existed in one of the 'unknown' Mobian regions that I just citied, or they were teleported from Earth, either by chance (like Kintobor) or deliberately plucked by Robotnik via technology.

    As far as StC is concerned, the argument on this topic is conclusively tied up if you take this information to be canon. The points I have put forward may not serve as valid evidence when making arguments about the other continuities, but hopefully they can provide you with some logical theories to explain gaps in the information your continuity has made available.
     
  8. Overlord

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    I think that pretty much ties it all up, at least from the StC view. My kudos to you, good sir.
     
  9. Frozen Nitrogen

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    <!--quoteo(post=515061:date=Oct 9 2010, 05:43 AM:name=HarrisonJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HarrisonJ @ Oct 9 2010, 05:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=515061">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=515059:date=Oct 8 2010, 11:38 PM:name=K2J)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (K2J @ Oct 8 2010, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=515059">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Towns being created by creatures that could actually run up the loops and through corkscrews would make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes, but the recent games have proven that for some reason humans build highways and stuff like that as well.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't think they actually build them like that. My reasoning for why you've got zany loops in the middle of Station Square and stuff is just that the Chaos Emeralds fuck everything up, warping spacetime left, right, and center.

    You go to bed with a perfectly straight highway outside your window; you wake up and there's a loop in it.
    It's kinda like how all the wires get tangled up and somehow knotted together when you've got multiple appliances all too close to each other. Except the Emeralds make it happen to EVERYTHING.
     
  10. The problem is there are too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to Sonic, if it was one specific group of the same people that had control over the content of the Sonic World over these past 20 years, then it would make sense, but that isn't what we the consumers/fans have, we have multiple parties making multiple additions to a vague world.

    At least in my eyes, the more civilized places seen in the Genesis series that featured human-esqe type backgrounds like Spring Yard, Oil Ocean, Chemical Plant and so forth to be creations of Eggman, at least in my younger mind. Planet wise I never gave it much thought either, Mobius and such are additions from the comics and saturday morning cartoons and certain games like Sonic CD and probably others had been tailored at least in the western side of the world to match up, Amy Rose in Sonic CD was originally called Princess Sally despite the fact she's a pink hedgehog and not a squirrel. But you never saw a human besides Eggman in this series.

    Then suddenly in Sonic Adventure, we have humans, humans who don't seem to react to a talking, blue hedgehog. I know personally I'd be freaking out (and checking into rehab) if one of my hedgehogs started to talk to me. But far as I can see in Sonic Adventure, no one questions Sonic, like right in the start when he attacks Chaos after the police attempted to shoot it dead. They just ducked and covered while Sonic took care of business, no one was like WTF, a talking blue hedgehog! So in a sense and being that Sonic Adventure is closer to the original Sonic Team in design, that humans have probably existed. I would go for the fact that its just humans live in one area, talking animals live in another, such as others have pointed out.

    The OVA is definitely on a different level compared to most, and is set on a futurist earth. As some have pointed out, the land of Darkness, Sonic comes across the ruins of a city that resembles NYC, and it is.

    [​IMG]

    Left of course is from the OVA, right is the Empire State Building and obviously though not an exact design, it pretty much matches up. Even take the building beyond that is sticking out of the water, resembles one of the World Trade Center buildings. So the OVA and Planet Freedom are definitely a futuristic earth, thus would explain the humans. But as for the entire Sonic Canon, I personally wouldn't take this movie to heart, as there is never a return of the floating civilization above the planet.

    But in the end there is no clear answer to this, once again as I started off with, there has just been too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to Sonic. In the end with all the different design worlds we have, I'd say there are humans, thus it would explain the human style backgrounds found in the originals, humans in Adventure and so forth. From what I read in this thread, the multiverse theroy is the best, that Sonic is on Planet Earth, but its not the same earth as per say Chris Thorndouche and Sonic X takes place on, be it a difference dimension that they reach via the chaos control accident, or a different timeline ala Back to the Future.
     
  11. serpx

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    Even though the world of Sonic constantly changes / filled with plot holes, it seems that Yuji Naka put to rest (for SEGA Sonic) humans being on Sonic's home planet.
     
  12. JLCL00

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    I share the same thoughts with Spike Connor. It's hard to explain about how humans, besides Robotnik, appeared all of a sudden in Sonic Adventure.

    In some variations, it's just modern Earth with a few talking animals roaming around. Others; A post-apocalyptic Earth that either A) has floating islands or B) has a large population of anthros that resulted in some mutation.

    It's similar to how there's variations of well known folk tale. In versions of Little Red Riding Hood, the girl drinks the blood and eats the meat of her (grand)mother and isn't saved by anyone when she is eaten. For Snow White, there are versions where it was a ring that caused her to enter eternal sleep, where she was living with 40 dragons, and where the dwarfs are replaced with knights.
     
  13. The KKM

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    Main, that was a great dissertion. I must say I don't think Mobius being the future fits for StC, too many stories using it as a parallel-dimension for Earth. Sister dimentions, perhaps. I was trying to keep myself on the realm of StC, (not Online!) though.

    Of course, the other explaination for "why are there humans in StC" is simp+ly "Lew Strenger didn't care for any fucking canon when doing stories :b"
     
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