We're kind of in the lull between knowing the next Sonic game exists and knowing anything about it. And with that new game might possibly follow a new gameplay style. While we could talk til the cows come home about said game and what it may play like, we're gonna have no true way of knowing until it reveals itself. So I guess I have a topic to keep people satiated, arising with a question.. How do you think you would combine a classic/Adventure style of game (more about building on slope speed, spinning) with the ideas of the boost games (boosting, drifting, quick stepping)? The thought has come up to me a lot, especially lately; mostly after playing Sonic Colors recently and realizing that with how occasional the boost is, I could've really used an extra push through the stage.. which made me realize how nice it would've been to have the Spindash/roll in that game. Of course I understand that this subject would be an issue of how people view the "ideals" of these games clashing (classic style is all about momentum building, boost is about constant top speed, whatever), but this clash can breed creativity when figuring out how to mend their ideas together. ---- Here, let me throw in an idea to kick it off. What if instead of Rings, Sonic's boost meter was built up by speed? Let's remember an old friend from Unleashed: the speedometer (above the boost bar). In Unleashed itself it's pretty pointless, not gonna lie. Not sure why it exists, but this is where we fix that. Maybe this speedometer could be what makes it accumulate boost power, and reaching/maintaining higher speeds would make it charge quicker. This is where reintroducing the spin or Spindash would come into play; as using those on slopes would be the best way to fill up the bar. Now the gameplay is about maintaining momentum, and being rewarded turbo-speed power for it. ---- Of course, this is one way to go about things. Maybe you'd want to lean more on the classic/Adventure side of gameplay and repurpose the boost moves into another context. Or maybe you'd have a new idea altogether that tries something new! I have a few ideas for that too, but I don't want to run this OP much longer. lol
I've always imagined an adventure style game (even if open world) with boost gameplay in the special stages for collecting the Chaos Emeralds. And as Super Sonic you would have the boost to do as you please.
The Adventure style's most distinguishing feature, I think, is that tiny moment when you're launched up in the air, because there really isn't anything you should be doing and you get a few moments to take the scenery, take a loot at the path ahead and feel the butterflies in your stomach as Sonic falls to the ground. These moments in which you're in motion, but the action is suspended, are very precious. So much so that the games do that a LOT. Boost gameplay took these away in favour of there always being something to do, because the boost meter is supposed to always be filling. If boosting could be used to build these moments of suspension rather than take them away, that'd be a nice mix. Don't know how yet though.
I've always seen the rolling mechanic and the boost mechanic as directly at odds with one another despite their point being similar. Rolling is a commitment that rewards the player's observastions about the level, Sonic's physics, and timing. It has an eventual payoff of speed,invulnerability and air time if it's tied right, but boosting can be done without having to consider the environment or level design for the same reward. So in order to justify using both at the same time, the designer would have to differentiate the two as tools. I don't like working backwards to justify preexisting mechanics like this, but here it goes: Boosting: -Looses all offensive capabilities. Curling up is for smashing and boosting is for movement. -Has less frequent opportunities to gain meter. +Makes it easier to run along walls +still lets him cross water without falling in Side note, I'm flirting with the idea if still letting Sonic have invincibility or some i-frames on startup even if he can't destroy anything. It would keep the mechanic from feeding back into itself too much and timing a "boost" to dodge an attack would feel pretty satisfying. Rolling -Is "heavier" IE you gain more speed going downhill but you lose it a bit faster going up hill. -Takes longer to wind up a decently poweful spindash(though you could probably spend some meter to boost and then roll for a similar effect as the instant one from SA1. +retains offensive power +Is easier to control than boosting. This comes off as more balanced to me, and there might be some satisfaction in a player switching the tool to fit the situation like you do in some other action games but I feel like you have to chip away at a lot of the appeal of both of these mechanics to make it work, so I'm not sure how into it people would be.
See, I think this would make a really fun game with a very good balance of mechanics. And I don't think it takes away all of either's appeal, either. Boosting still is Sonic blasting off from speed gained from a meter, and rolling is still a tool to maximize momentum-building. Neither work exactly the same as their source material, but I don't think it has to for it to be fun or well-designed. The series has done much worse in changing how mechanics work anyways, so meeting in the middle sounds like one of the better ideas to me. Maybe the biggest roadblock for people is trying to imagine how the game's movement can remain fluid. For that, I'd recommend the indie game Defunct, a game that's already kinda done both (and more). Right at the beginning of the game (2:24 if you want to skip the first part) it introduces a move called "Gravitize", which essentially works the same mechanically as rolling, to an extent. Gravitizing downhill will increase your speed, gravitizing uphill will decrease it. I imagine rolling would probably be better at coasting, and maybe wouldn't slow as much up hills as this does, but the idea is the same. And as you can see, it works really well, or at least better than rolling ever has in a previous 3D Sonic title. Skip around (or don't! enjoy the footage it's pretty cool) to around 20 minutes and you'll see the "Enerjuice" move; this game's version of boosting. Thing about boosting in this game is that it's accelerative instead of instantaneous, so it feels more like a natural speed-boost move and as if an extension of the robot's already existing ability to drive. In a similar way, I think turning the boost into something of an extension of Sonic's run, rather than a separate move altogether, is the right way to go. Plus, it also helps that your ability to gain boost power is made scarce, so you have to rely on your roll/gravitize. It's a little hard to describe this without you getting a feel for yourself, so if anyone has the time I'd pick it up. It's on sale for pennies most of the time, sometimes even less.
I think the problem with Boost and 3D Sonic is that the move is unwieldy for a platformer. I looked at Defunct and it looks cool but I don't get the impression that it's platformer focused. Could be wrong? I mean at least when he's 'boosting' it looks like an open version of Unleashed. And if you don't mind if Sonic is a platformer then it's not a big deal, but if you do want the series to be a platformer I find it almost completely incompatible. I've always thought that Boost is best when Sonic is playing essentially as a kind of racing game. Generations has some nice platforming but you almost never use Boost under those circumstances. I know that's not an original take but I think it's the core of the problem. I've played fangames like Sonic GT which try to have Boost speed gameplay with platforming and I'm just not convinced.
It's more like a different kind of platformer, rather than not one. One that leans a lot more on racing elements, but then again classic Sonic relies a lot more on pinball mechanics than the average platformer and nothing is designed like it either. It's fair to register it as a different beast from the classic games, but I don't think it's fair to say it's too apart from the genre itself. Making a game like this wouldn't meet the pace of either the classic games or the boost games imo, though, it'd be somewhere in the middle. Best comparison would be like the Rayman Origins/Legends games or other games like it; more focus on fluidity than modern style's raw speed, but more focused on forward movement than the classic style's stop-and-go-ish nature. I agree too that Sonic GT is (while fun in it's own right) lacking, but I think it's because it's trying to make a boost-type game without having the move itself. As if to pretend it doesn't need it, when having a turbo you manually initiate/hold in place while maneuvering it is the crux of that gameplay style. It's got it's heart in one place while playing like another, and the non-commital feeling imo makes it feel like a not so successful "hybrid" attempt.
I'm kinda with Laura where in terms of platforming, it's hard for me to come up with ideas on how to recontextualize the Boost mechanic due to the type of gameplay that it's built with in mind. I feel like more often than not, accomplishing this would be to overhaul both mechanics into having different purposes altogether that have little overlap, like rolling is only used for combat or evasive movement, and/or the Boost mechanic is more like a limit break state--and in both cases, my mind at times drifts to the gameplay being something different altogether (like being more of an action(-adventure) genre game). In terms of Boost/non-Boost Sonic gameplay hybrids working out, my thought process usually ends up defaulting to folding the mechanics from one playstyle towards the other playstyle and then retooling them to fit into those existing parameters. Like how in Generations, the drift animation in Unleashed was changed into a roll/spindash; so by the same token, you could replace the stomp and slide with the bounce mechanic and rolling, and tweak it so their properties are adapted in for a bit (i.e. continuing to roll if the slope is steep enough; being able to gain rebound height after hitting the ground with the bounce). Or going the other way around, replicating the Boost mechanic as it exists in the Advance series (kicks in if you're consistently moving fast enough...somehow), and having the slide and stomp as either secondary attacks or character upgrades, presumably for the non-Sonic/Shadow/speed characters. Alternatively--in both cases, the mechanics from the other playstyles wouldn't replace their close equivalents, but would be alternate mechanics intended for players with a higher skill ceiling. For example, pulling off the roll in Boost gameplay or the slide in non-Boost gameplay would be more complicated to pull off in terms of button inputs and/or be more difficult to control, but they get you more mileage for speedrunning or garners you more points if you hit any enemies with them. I.E. you roll in the non-Boost gameplay, and then you change to a slide at just the right time before you hit an badnik--it punts the enemy high in the air, and from there you could pick what you can use this for. (Emphasis on just the right time--too far? It's considered a slide attack, so that just punts them forward. Too close? Consider a roll so you just plow through them.) From there, you have some choices as to where to go with the enemy. Bounce it for a small multiplier of points like the S3/Mania starpost. HA badniks launched like this into other badniks, and you can use it to ricochet into up to five more enemies with a sizable point multiplier. Use it to hit switches or item boxes that open shortcuts or have rare / unreachable items (like 100 rings or 1ups, that are locked behind a crate or are literally invisible and wouldn't be found otherwise). Use it as a way to stun bosses or deal twice the amount of damage, especially for bosses that have (high) defense strategies. Or if a bounce ability was added into the Boost gameplay. You could use it to cut the downtime you would have when using the stomp, since that requires you to come to a complete stop (and has some cooldown) before you could then continue with a boost--bouncing would launch you into the air for a bit, so you can move forward (or back, or to the side) and segue into running/boosting faster when landing. Or use it as a means to access particular routes, like a rail/zipline/hoop/etc. suspended in mid-air; or a ball-shaped hole that can only be accessed via Sonic in the bounce state.
I came across a cute fast paced browser microgame called Cologary a few weeks ago that kinda works similarly to how that's described, but in a 2D space with only two movement buttons. Spoiler: Controls Holding [← or →][A or D] cuts your momentum and rockets you towards the ground, where you start rolling. Holding [nothing] lets you float off the angle of the ground with your current momentum. You are very light! You play as an apple trying to roll as far as you can under a generous timelimit, before automatically losing control and turning into a tree. Give it a test whirl in your browser of choice right here, right now... It's a 1min long, charming and replayable arcade-like romp! (At the very least try it to listen to the lovely music track~)
If you'd ask me, I'd say don't. I don't think nerfing a move is a great idea. Wouldn't make much sense from Sonic's perspective either. Just bring back rolling physics and we're good. Curl into ball, bonk off a wall, uncurl again aaaand boost. Yeah, either that, or make the boost work in smaller areas. Think of it more like a dash than a boost. Spindashing mid air, yes or no? I mean... why not? Rolling down a hill is fun! Just my thoughts. Pardon me.
I think the boost games are fine in a vacuum but the boost itself is contrary to the sense of movement I really enjoy from Sonic games the most. If you're just going FAST FAST FAST all the time, there's little contrast to derive any sense of impact from, the speed ceases to impress or give you any meaningful visceral reaction. The Sonic World fangame nails what I want from "hybrid" gameplay. You get the freedom of movement and tricks and tools from the Adventure games, the momentum-based joy/reward of the classics, and some boost-era touches like drifting thrown in for good measure and it all ties in beautifully (in my books anyway). You have your choice in how you'd like to rip through most levels and when you really get moving it feels earned and fluid. The boost games don't give me that rewarding flow, you generally just boost from setpiece to setpiece.
Yeah, I agree that Boost Sonic is still a platformer. And Sonic GT has shown that you can make a 'boost' platformer. I just don't think Boost synergises very well in a traditional way of equal platforming as movement. So I agree with you that it would have to be a platformer in a more unorthodox manner. Only minimal jumping at times when it's required for example and have the jumps spaced apart. That would take advantage of the great speed while not making the platforming a complete mess. While it's maybe a strange game for comparison, I think Mirror's Edge is a good example of that. You only really jump occasionally when going at full-speed and those moments used sparingly (and memorably). Most of the other jumps are at slow speed. Of course, the issue then is making the Boost gameplay not feel repetitive. I think you are right that making it more of a 'hybrid' is a good idea but then you would still need the Boost portions to be designed in such a way that they do not just feel like glorified setpieces. Because while the move would be organic in the sandbox (for lack of a better term), the level's geometry would need to be designed in such a way to accommodate and encourage for it for new players. Actually, thinking of Rayman as an example, the game's fast paced stages are typically designed as setpieces (and do a damn good job of doing it). You aren't typically running at full speed throughout the game. So I guess if the setpieces were really well-done it could work. I think this also raises the question of how much faster Boost would be compared to base movement speed. In the Boost games it's absolutely massive. And while Rayman is faster when running it's not to that extent. Also, I think I might be a bit confused by your proposal. You are saying to have a Boost Meter (essentially) that fills up by reaching certain speeds (which would be easier to gain when using moves like rolling?). I'm not really sure if that's a good idea in a hybrid game because at that point it should be an ability which can be used effectively at any point in the game (at least I think so!). Thinking of Rayman again (because I think it's a good comparison you've raised), it's not like Rayman can only run once he's filled his meter. So I actually think a Boost button would be better if you should only really use it when suitable (kind of like a run button). Then the issue of how fast Boost should be is raised again.
Perhaps have it limited to certain sections? Kinda like the mach speed bits in 06, I guess something like that would be a nice solution, maybe (if the leaks are true) this what there doing with "rangers" as supposedly the boost exists but only in certain levels and not in the main world.
I had the same thought, but please no more Frankensteins. It would double the difficulty of S-ranking stages.
I'm really loose with what "boost" could be in the OP, mostly since I want people to come to their own answers on how a boost move and a spin move could co-exist, rather than give a set idea. But if I were to decide how the hybrid style worked, I have two different ways I'd go about it: 1 ) If I kept the boost's drain/refill rate the same, I'd make it move not much faster than normal running speed, more accelerative than instant, and remove it's ability to destroy things. Something that you can use frequently, and still represents Sonic's speed as something of a superpower to dash long stretches and help climb up hills/walls, but isn't going to invalidate the remaining moveset. 2 ) If I were to keep the aspect of the boost where it grants instant super-speed and invincibility, I'd make it's resources far more of a scarcity and it's meter drain much quicker. Something you can only charge up by smashing enemies, getting boost-energy capsules (ala white wisps in Colors) or through building momentum (as said in OP), with most reliability being on the last one. This way the game would have a satisfying extra layer to the gameplay, where you're rewarded for keeping the flow with extra fuel for superspeed. --- ..On an aside, when I said "boost gameplay" too I didn't just mean the boost, but also other moves associated with the style, like the drift or the quickstep. If people think those could work in a game without boost, I'd like to see a case made for those, too. They're maybe half or more of the reason I want to see a 'hybrid' style, since I love those moves but am not sure how necessary they are without the boost. lol
There actually already is a boost game that also involves rolling and spindashing: Sonic Rush :p Sadly the sense of momentum really isn't really up to snuff to make it feel very satisfying, so the spindash kinda just feels like it was added as a fail-safe that the player can use when they run out of boost. In a 3D game I still think implementing the mach-state from Advance 2 could be interesting and gives a good purpose for the drift and quickstep It's one of those things that's easier said than done, but would love to see it put into practice without feeling like some kind of frankenstein-ish abomination of the two styles. In general these kinds of threads remind me of why I find Sonic so exciting. There's simply no other platformer character that could attract this much thought on how to handle different gameplay philosophies lol
Ironically my greatest source of inspiration for how to handle an Adventure-Boost hybrid game (which would be my personal choice for a hybrid game style) is to take what Sonic 06 did with its Mach Speed sections, but have them control and be designed like the boost sections in games. That way, instead of the 2D/3D sections, we'd have an even split between Boost sections and adventure sections. Of course, the one caveat would be that inevitably, the adventure sections would be slower-paced, but have a lot more depth to them- but Sonic would certainly be faster than he was in 06, as that was just taking things too far.
I'll just drop it here again- my bro and I are currently developing an indie game with multiple optional gameplay styles, one of which will basically be Adventure 2's sonic gameplay, but with Advance 2's boost and rush's trick system. I obviously can't claim it'll be good, but how the game feels is my #1 priority and I'm determined to get it right.
Frankly...this is gonna be a really hot take, but that's not that different from the actual Classic games. The amount of times in Classic Sonic you actually spend doing "traditional" platforming (that is, careful slow jumps onto small platforms) is pretty low. Jumping is usually a thing done on slopes to get RADICAL AIR, to get onto a different, or to kill an enemy/break a monitor. In that sense, Sonic GT feels honestly way closer to classic Sonic than any actual 3D Sonic game, and does not feel like it's trying to be a boost game (it has boost moves, but only the ones that actually help in a 3D space like the stomp--the homing attack is also completely different and physics-based). In the faster Classic levels you really do go relatively that fast, flying across the level and jumping mainly to get huge air or to go onto a different path. You do go way faster than the 2D games, but that's because 3D gives you vastly better visibility of the level ahead and thus you can go faster without hitting something. The level design of Hill Top in it even looks practically like a Classic Sonic level rotated 90 degrees and then stretched out on the Z-axis--nothing like a boost level at all. Generations and Unleashed kept you on a vastly tighter leash the entire way throughout their 3D sections and they had no emphasis on slope physics at all in contrast to GT. If anything, GT feels much closer to Adventure with thrice the speed, tighter controls, and actual classic-style slope physics. GT's level design on the other hand is just a direct extrapolation of Classic Sonic level design into 3D, about as direct as you can get. The levels are huge, yes--and then you look at Classic Sonic levels compared to, say, Mega Man, 2D Mario, Donkey Kong Country. Sonic's levels are incredibly massive compared to those games, so it makes sense than when extrapolated into 3D you have these massive playgrounds. Sonic needs space, and lots of it. Trying to make him work in the space of other 3D platformers is a lost cause.
