How would you fix Sonic's continuity?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. big smile

    big smile

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    Those are fair points, although the Whisps are shown to be curious, so perhaps they traveled to Sonic's World after the amusement park incident. I do agree it's a sloppy fix.
     
  2. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Point of order: they did, actually.

    30 seconds in, a small collective of Wisps drop Sonic off. 1 minute 20 seconds in, the entire collective drops back into the atmosphere for Yacker to chat to Sonic after dealing with the black hole, so some of them might have found the planet nice enough to hang about and look around.
     
  3. Josh

    Josh

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    Listen, BlackHole. The only cutscene in Sonic Colors was BALDY NOSEHAIR. Pretending like there's anything else to this game is cheatin'!

    (I need to stop going on r/sonicthehedgehog.)
     
  4. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Hey, when I said I was considering a fan-derived Sonic the Hedgehog Encyclopedia, that means I'd research the background stuff a bit more closely.

    Debating on a few things, though. Like the Super Emeralds: I'd rather explain them as attempts to create stronger Chaos Emeralds to lower Angel Island, and what we see in Sonic Mania are 'dead' Super Emeralds as they weren't supposed to be used as actual Chaos Emeralds, resulting in their complete draining and cracking.

    But apparently, they're just bigger Chaos Emeralds, which is also fairly hinted at in Sonic Adventure so I can't actually dispute such a thing, and the Super Emeralds in Sonic Mania are stone replacements. Why they needed replacing is beyond me.

    Note: I don't dislike the idea of the Super Emeralds being enlarged Chaos Emeralds, I grew up reading Sonic the Comic where that was exactly what was going on:

    [​IMG]

    I just viewed the game versions as separate Emeralds.
     
  5. Xiao Hayes

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    I didn't, I assumed Master Emerald empowered them, causing them to go super in a similar way Sonic changes, and I see the patch for not having them again was Master Emerald spent too much energy in keeping Hyper Sonic active in outer space, so it had to get back the energy from the super emeralds back into itself to return to the skies. Alternatively, Chaos was the extra power source and, once freed, the emeralds lost that power boost.
     
  6. BadBehavior

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    Nuke the whole timeline post-Shadow, include Rush + Rush Adventure and go from there. First new game after this restructuring would address two worlds, bring other desired characters (Silver, Eggman Nega, Mephiles, Zavo... eh that's stretching it) into the canon and would have absolutely no classic elements anywhere. Iizuka can't say that the two characters are separate while having them so tightly entwined. I'm surprised TSR didn't have a free update that added Classic Sonic as a rider, lil Sonic Drift kart and all.
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Oh, that would have actually been really cool. Here's to them doing that come the next Sonic Racing game (preferably with the rest of the SEGA Allstars cast back and continuing to build on Sonic and All-Stars Racing Transformed. Give me my Panzer Dragoon and Skies of Arcadia goodness, SEGA!).

    Edit: Oh hey, further evidence that the Classic/Modern split is new and the older designs were the canon 'young' designs until it came along.
    https://twitter.com/ArcadeMegamix/status/1274628683085549568
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  8. Beltway

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    I wouldn’t really consider that hard evidence about the older designs being retconned as younger designs; those are more akin to aesthetic cameos. If they were, it’s contradicted by stuff in the same game like Tails and Amy’s flashbacks of their past experiences with Sonic (calling back to S2/SCD) in the same game; where they still have their then-new designs there instead of having their Genesis designs.
     
  9. Josh

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    Agreed. If we take them as canonical, the flashbacks are incongruent with the idea that the characters looked like their old designs when they were younger.

    Either Adventure is presenting a new continuity where some version of previous events still happened, or (more likely) at the time Sonic Adventure was produced, the characters were simply meant to have ALWAYS looked like this.

    Neither explanation fits with Generations' "past self" idea, which I'm more convinced than ever is meant more as a meta explanation (an earlier design for the character) than a canon explanation. Forces was (attempting to be) more plot-centric, and gave a reason that fits better.

    Of course, going back to Adventure, there's also no reason the Casinopolis pinball table should be themed on Sonic's previous design. But then, there's ALSO no reason it should contain NiGHTS, so maybe Time Eater just works in mysterious ways.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  10. RDNexus

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    To me, there's a simple explanation to all that...
    Iizuka and his staff simply didn't care about how SA1 dealt with the continuity and went with a fan-pandering plot.
    Which, as we can all see, only created further division and confusion in the community...
     
  11. BlackHole

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    I figured the previous game flashbacks using the then current models was down to memory limitations and time preventing three new models being added, skeleton-ed, etcetc for approximately 55 seconds screen-time (Tails' flashback: 46 seconds, Amy's flashbacks: 9 seconds). Same reason they used the Mystic Ruins for Tails and (what looks to be) BETA Windy Valley and the Egg Carrier to represent West Side Island, Never Lake and the Little Planet/Metal Madness.

    And before it's pointed out they have a classic model for Sonic and Tails, they're low poly models left over from the Saturn that are swapped out when the camera is brought close.

    Meanwhile, the lore otherwise connects Sonic Adventure to the Mega Drive trilogy:

    -Sonic to Knuckles: "Did Eggman trick you again?!" in reference to Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles.

    -Aforementioned flashbacks from Tails and Amy

    And if I recall correctly, there was something about an NPC talking about the events of the Little Planet in the Japanese version of the game.

    EDIT: It's also in the English:

    [​IMG]

    Meanwhile, Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles actually lead into the game through mention of an ancient civilisation that disappeared overnight and a Dragon's Egg (Perfect Chaos) and ancient mural (end of the Lost World level), with Knuckles confusing the Death Egg for it.

    Basically, as far as Sonic Adventure is concerned, the Classic Games happened, and in fact lead into the events of the game. I find it highly disrespectful to the original developers' work to negate their actually consistent world-building simply because one guy can't seem to grasp the concept of continuity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  12. Josh

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    Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that was the intent as of Sonic Adventure. I'm one of the biggest "Adventure is a separate universe" believers there is, and even _I_ didn't start feeling that way until SA2. But I could feel the difference as soon as Ohshima was out. Between that, Naka pushing to "age up" the series, and (SA2's writer) Shiro Maekawa's belief that the Mega Drive style "didn't fit Sonic's character," it makes sense. (And that last one is probably the biggest reason.) THAT'S where the split happened for me.

    I mean, I loved the Adventure games, there was a time when I considered them both to be among the best games I'd ever played. I just quickly judged their plots and settings as something separate from the Genesis classics. And it was very natural to do that, because even BEFORE Adventure, Sonic's canon was already split in a billion different directions (SatAM, AoStH, western canon with "Mobius" and "Robotnik," eastern canon with "Eggman," Archie comics, Fleetway, Underground, on and on and on...).

    This may be veering a bit off-topic, but I recently came across a similar topic we had here 14 years ago.

    [​IMG]

    The biggest reason fans increasingly saw the series split into pre-Adventure and post-Adventure camps was the declining quality of the 3D series. I don't think Sega ever would've been inclined to split the series officially and bring back the original design as a separate concept, had they not ruined the reputation of their mascot in the 2000s.

    It's funny how a lot of what those fans wanted in 2006 actually came to pass (Eggman as the primary villain, more 2D, no more Chao, focus on Sonic as the only playable character, bring back the classic designs, less drama/plot focus), and NOW THAT WE GOT ALL THAT, there's a generation of fans who want the OPPOSITE because... well, as the "LESS FURRY DRAMA" poster said in 06, they grew up with a very different Sonic, and so they believe that's what the series should be about.

    And that's FINE, everyone's gonna love what they grew up with, but it puts Sega in an awful position in regards to Sonic's legacy. The way THIS group of fans sees Sonic is basically incompatible with the way THAT group of fans sees it, and I think their way of handling that is to split the game series into two separate universes. It never SHOULD have come to this point, but the time to correct for it passed 15-20 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  13. BlackHole

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    The examples you posted are adaptations. Yes, they're their own continuity, but each were their own bubble of canon. The games were one bubble.

    It would be akin to saying the Super Mario Bros. Super Show was adding to the hectic continuity of the Super Mario franchise.

    And the split has caused a further divide. I don't think anyone asked for a divided continuity. You thought there was, but would you have asked for it?

    Really, the less convoluted plots request is fine, that's fair. But that doesn't mean the background lore should be inconsistent: Kirby is actually doing a better job, tying in a lot of background lore while maintaining it's simpler game play and plot. Background lore doesn't have to be convoluted, a story can be basic but still add to the lore.

    For instance: take Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity. The basic plot is that Robotnik wants to find Babylon Garden and use the advanced tech of the Babylonians to advance his goals. That's all we'd need for that.

    Simple addition to the lore through a singular action: have a defence system that opens fire on Knuckles.

    That will be taken two ways. To the casual observer, it's Knuckles being the butt of a joke again. To people looking into the lore, they could see it as the system targeting Knuckles because he's an echidna, who are implied to have had quarrel with a bird-based race in the past, most likely the enemies Pachacamac refers to when attempting to claim the Emeralds.

    Boom, you've added to the lore with a simple action, it doesn't interfere with the casual observer's view, while those who enjoy looking into these things (and yes, they exist) can see it as furthering the backstory of the Echinda: the Babylonians were in conflict with them at some point, enough that their defence system would target one if it notices them.
     
  14. Josh

    Josh

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    Sure. Multi-verses and different versions of the same character are one of my favorite things in fiction, and it's probably because I was exposed to the idea at such a young age, thanks to Sonic's many continuity splits.

    From the Sonic 4 thread, February 2010:


    MAN, Generations was a dream come true for me, hahaha. And speaking of, here's one from the Generations thread, August 2011:

    Calling it the "verse," hahaha. I can tell I'd just watched Firefly for the first time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  15. BlackHole

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    Fair, although again, the different continuities were adaptations of the games, just as the Super Mario Bros. Super Show was an adaptation of the Super Mario Bros. series and had no baring on the continuity of the games.

    Sonic Adventure
    is not an adaptation, and once more stems from build up from Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, while referencing the events of those games and Sonic the Hedgehog CD directly. We'll simply have to agree to disagree, as I doubt you'll be able to convince me Sonic is not the same character between the Mega Drive games and the Adventure onward games.

    As for the age thing, well, Amy Rose gives us a good reference: she went from 8 in Sonic the Hedgehog CD to 12 in Sonic Adventure. Of course, Sonic went from 16 to 15, so... I guess Classic Sonic is actually the older Sonic between him and Modern Sonic?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    But yeah, I'd just retcon the ages so Sonic starts off at 11 during the Mega Drive era, the Adventure era takes place at 15 and Modern is 16, turning 17 for Sonic Generations.
     
  16. RDNexus

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    Or the adventures of Sonic & Pals could've just happened back-to-back and the characters hardly having aged until today?
    Why the need to age them because of aesthetic changes with the passing of the millennium?
    Amy's age was retconned to better fit her new appearance. And Sonic's age stopped being ambiguous. Simple as that.
    Classic-to-Modern Sonic are one and the same, simply an aesthetic evolution.

    And I don't see Generations as relevant to the continuity. It's a fanservice game to the continuity, down to the birthday thing.
     
  17. BlackHole

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    Probably because one is clearly smaller than the other, there's definite years between events (specifically, Sonic the Hedgehog CD and Sonic the Hedgehog 4) and some of us don't like the idea of two different continuities idea introduced in Sonic Forces over the single continuity that the games prior showed?
     
  18. RDNexus

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    First... I don't give a crap about Iizuka's "different continuities" reasoning.
    Those are excuses for him to bring up new games in whatever way he wants.

    Second... I already said that Classic-to-Modern change, to me, is purely aesthetic, to fit a new gaming era, at the time.
    He was shorter, rounder, cuter? Well, they decided to make him taller, sleeker, cooler. Simple as that! Aesthetics!

    Third... Sonic06 may be deemed as the hottest Sonic game turd ever.
    But to me it was the last attempt at keeping the continuity intact, even if slightly. Too bad it sucked BIG TIME.
    From Unleashed onwards, all episodic games that little or nothing add to the continuity, because Iizuka doesn't want to! And it pisses me off.

    Hence me always claiming to want the series to be rebooted.
    To restart the continuity from Sonic1's content forward, picking up the best of each game and making it even better.
    No need to do a BOOM thing, stick to the original continuity and upgrade it from there. Nothing simpler, in my opinion.

    Am I sounding too elitist, selfish or arrogant for stating my mind this way?
    At those who grew up experiencing Sonic differently from me and building their own vision of what may be best for the franchise...
     
  19. BlackHole

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    We all have our different viewpoints on how to go about the series. I'd keep them all one world instead of the three* we've got, for instance.

    *Sonic's World, Classic Sonic's World and the Human World.

    Weird how the attempt to 'simplify' things leads to more confusion, since now we have to figure out what game took place in which world, and when things crossed over to allow it.

    I mean, were the Echidna in the Human World? There's a train station to and from the Human World's Station Square, which leads to the Mystic Ruins of the Echidna tribe. Does that mean Angel Island and the Chaos Emeralds originate from the Human World?
     
  20. BadBehavior

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    I find it funny because they got everything they wanted and they only got like 3 remotely decent games out of it: Unleashed, Generations and Mania. They got everything they wanted and the franchise and the fanbase surrounding it have only slipped back into uncertainty and fear. Would the solution be to have MORE 2D? MORE only Sonic? MORE anti-drama? MORE classic designs?

    I wonder if the "No furry drama" guy likes the plots of Colours and Lost World? I'm not advocating hunting them down and interrogating them or anything, I'm just curious. Maybe morbidly so.