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Hirokazu Yasuhara revealing all kinds of Sonic development stuff

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, May 22, 2017.

  1. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Ocean Wind reminds me a bit of Jungle Joyride, especially this part:
    Even the background is similar, with the clouds and the island, which has extremely similar colors between the two versions. Not to mention the camera angle in this part, which feels like a homage to the concept art. Huh. Makes me wonder if the OW concept art was an inspiration for JR.

    Edit: Also, I just realized that this concept art must be where the idea for the S3&K ramps originated from:

    Anyways, we may now have enough information to be able to recreate all missing levels (albeit with custom graphics, layouts, etc., of course). It seems to me that if we map all zones mentioned in the concept documents to final zones and concept art, we may know what all planned levels were supposed to look like:

    Green Hill Zone = EHZ in the final game
    Ocean Wind Zone = Ocean Wind in the concept art
    Woods Zone = Wood Zone in the prototypes and Secret Jungle in the concept art
    Sand Shower = desert level from the infamous mockup
    Metropolis Zone = MZ in the final game
    Warp Point/Hidden Shrine = Hidden Palace in the prototypes
    Tropical Plant/Tropical Summer Zone = Tropical Sun in the concept art
    Hill Top Zone = HTZ in the final game
    Blue Lake Zone = Blue Ocean in the concept art
    Olympus = ARZ in the final game and Emerald Isle in the concept art
    Dust Hill Zone = MCZ in the final game
    Oil Ocean Zone = OOZ in the final game
    Rock World Zone = Madness Mountain in the concept art
    Chemical Plant Zone = CPZ in the final game
    Casino Night Zone = CNZ in the final game and concept art
    Genocide City Zone = Cyber City in the concept art (with the level art being used by The Machine from Sonic Spinball, and MZ3 being the intended layout of one of its acts)
    Death Egg = DEZ in the final game and Death Egg in the concept art

    However, there were zones that were seemingly going to have multiple incarnations in the game such as:
    Rock World (past) and Rock World (ruined present)
    Genocide City I and Genocide City II
    Death Egg and Neo Death Egg

    And yet we have have only one concept art at most for each "group". I wonder if that means that they were going to reuse the level art between incarnations, hence they didn't bother creating concept art for the variants? Sounds likely to me, except for Rock World Zone, given that one version was seemingly a mountain, and the other a jungle. Edit: Perhaps the "jungle" version would actually have been an underground area not visible on the map rather than the jungle itself, being located below this one, in which case the graphics of the mountain version would have been compatible (as long as they didn't use the windows graphics). Or maybe the past/underground version of Rock World would have been Hidden Palace, which would have been consistent with the internal level order of HPZ, as well as the concept of HPZ itself as a secret underground area. In which case, each version of Rock World would have had its own graphics.
  2. muteKi


    Fuck it Member
    Heh, judging by the appearance of the cave of wonders and a wildebeest chase, someone on staff clearly was following Disney closely.
  3. XCubed


    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    Page splits??? Are you F-ing kidding me?

    Looks better than what we had before at least.
  4. DigitalDuck


    Arriving four years late. Member
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    I very much doubt "Warp Point" is a level.

    Olympus is not ARZ.

    1, Olympus is in the past, and therefore it makes no sense for it to be ruins.
    2. "Neo Green Hill" implies a level set in the future, which would make it distinct from a level in the past.
    3. Aquatic Ruin's level slot is at the end of the list, suggesting it was added after the maps Yasuhara revealed; Olympus would appear somewhere between 5 and 9, not 16.

    Emerald Isle is definitely concept art for ARZ, but not Olympus.

    Madness Mountain doesn't look like a "Rock World" at all. It's much more likely that Rock World Zone Past is Hidden Palace Zone, as you say later.

    I still say Madness Mountain is Olympus. Obviously it's not actually a mountain, but it looks the most like an "Atlantis" themed level, being clearly inside some castle/palace structure, using traps to keep out intruders, and probably water at some point.
  5. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    no reverse gear Wiki Sysop
    Northumberland, UK
    steamboat wiki
    There's definitely some Sonic Crackers concepts there - the idea of having Sonic and Tails inside a deformable bubble of some description sounds like an immense technical challenge, even for the 32X.
  6. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    I'm just trying to fill all the "gaps" by going with the assumption that no new levels were added (other than maybe Sky Chase and Wing Fortress) and mapping each planned zone to an existing level or concept art. Of course, this is all conjecture based on the limited information we have, and they may as well have added or replaced levels later (although I'll say that the fact SCZ and WFZ are the only zones that look plain enough to have been added at the last second seems to go against this). But for the sake of the model being suggested, I'm going with the assumption that they didn't.

    Aquatic Ruin/Olympus's odd placement may be related to the fact that it's the only zone whose label is inside a circle rather than a box. We can only speculate as to the meaning of it, but it may be that it was an alternate, secret level accessible at any point, ala Hidden Palace in later plans after they scrapped the time travel story. In which case its placement as second to last zone would be justified as it having no set order, but being accessible at any point up to before the final level.
    I agree its state in decay heavily hints it's in the future or present, but I couldn't find any location on the present and future maps that fit it.

    And I gotta disagree about MM = Olympus. The concept art doesn't seem to show Greek pillars anywhere to me. The hill or mountain in close proximity shown through window also contradicts Olympus' location, which is in the middle of the lake. As for MM not being a mountain, the assumption I'm going by is that it's a fortress/prison/dungeon of some sort built inside the mountain. The name Rock World even makes sense, given that it seems to be built entirely out of stone bricks, making it a "rock world". It could also be referring to it being inside a mountain. But more than anything, I think that MM = Rock World is supported by the fact that the concept art calls it Mountain Madness, and the ruined present's Rock World is the only location on the maps to be a/inside a mountain.

    As for HPZ = Warp Point, I'm not positive on that one either. But I'm going by the recent speculation that Hidden Palace = Hidden Shrine from the design documents. Since Hidden Shrine is where Sonic time travels from, the most fitting location on the map is Warp Point.
  7. DigitalDuck


    Arriving four years late. Member
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    That's because it's not shown on any of the maps. While it's plausible that it was a secret level, it still doesn't make sense; it makes more sense if, much like Sky Chase (which immediately follows it in the level data), it was added afterwards.

    There's a pillar at the top that looks vaguely like a Greek pillar.

    If the mountain is seen through the window, it means the zone is not on that mountain, but that the mountain is visible from the current zone. Conversely, if the zone were on or in the mountain, you wouldn't be able to see the same mountain off in the distance out the window. If you were at Olympus, you'd be able to see the mountains of nearby zones from Olympus.
  8. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    That's possible, but I feel there is quite some evidence suggesting that it wasn't a late addition. Such as the fact that it has concept art matching the other early levels' concept art, giving the impression that it was conceived around the same time. Or that it's one of the most detailed looking levels in the game, especially compared with SC and WF. Or that it went through so many name changes; Emerald Isle -> Neo Green Hill -> Aquatic Ruin.

    What makes you think the mountain on the window has to be the Rock World mountain? Rock World is right next to the north mountain on the map.
  9. DigitalDuck


    Arriving four years late. Member
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    There's a difference between "added after the initial maps" and "late addition".

    Then which mountain is it inside of, and which other mountain can be seen through the window?
  10. Reiterating my theoretical level order, as I feel it still holds up, detailed post here:
    1 Emerald Hill ????
    2 Ocean Wind ?????
    3 Secret Forest/Woods ???
    4 Sandy Shower ???
    5 Metropolis ??????

    Middle Ages:
    6 Tropical Sun ???????
    7 Blue Ocean ????????
    8 Madness Mountain

    Ruined Present:
    9 Rock World ???
    10 Oil Ocean ???
    11 Dust Hill ???
    12 Death Egg ?????

    13 Hill Top ?????
    14 Blue ???

    15 Casino Night ???
    16 Chemical Plant ????
    17 Genocide City ??????
    18 Neo Death Egg ???????
    19 Space ??
    On the ARZ and Olympus tip, I put Madness Mountain as at the very-least near Olympus, due to it being a fortress and having a greco-roman column in the concept art, and also due to being able to spot mountains in the
    background. Its more like Madness Mountain rests at the base of a mountain. ARZ I couldn't place in either past, considering how it is in ruins.
  11. Glaber


    Has Beaten Sonic Genesis for GBA Oldbie
    Despite some arguments, I believe this is the best interpretation of what zone is what. I'm not entirely sure myself that Hidden palace is Warp point, but in reality, we only have half an act to go off of. I have done some thinking about it though, what if Hidden Palace was Rock World Past? The level assets fit that of a rock world level, and the robots fit the past time zone

    I myself believe Olympus is Neo Green Hill. Despite the stage not fitting the original level order, it fits the theme perfectly. Plus it makes more sense than saying Madness Mountain is that stage (MM looks more like a recolored Underground Zone [Sonic 2 8-bit] to me)
  12. I believe I had posted it once here, but I often phrase things poorly so here goes again. I don't think the warp point label indicates a level. However, I do believe that the Middle Ages or Past Rock World Zone could have been the Hidden Palace. Then the Ruined Present of the Rock World either became something we haven't seen, or became Mystic Cave (which I find more likely).

    Oh, and the main problems I see with putting ARZ/Neo-Green Hill as Olympus are:
    A. Is Olympus actually a level? Or is it just a landmark on the map / in the backgrounds
    B. Aquatic Ruin Zone is in ruins, and it doesn't seem like Olympus would have been in ruins as of the middle ages.
    (HOWEVER, Olympus had been referred to as Atlantis before, so it could be possible that it was active in the Ancient period but submerged, and the ruins of it became accesible only in the middle ages after the water level had gone down...)
  13. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Yeah, Olympus and especially Hidden Palace have to be among the biggest mysteries right now. I agree that that the latter being Rock World past is a likely possibility as well. If only somebody would interviewed Yasuhara or another Japanese staff member and ask about these levels *hint hint*

    There is also the possibility that it's not on the maps. They may have excluded it when they drew them due to its status as a secret optional level. Or it may be that it wasn't supposed to be in South Island (after all, it doesn't need to be in the close vicinity for Sonic to access it, assuming that you would be teleported to it by the Emeralds as implied by Naka), just like the Death Egg levels, which were unlabeled due to them taking place in space (at least Neo Death Egg). If would be funny if that were the case and we're breaking our heads trying to pinpoint it when it's actually none of the labeled areas on the map :psyduck:

    It's quite simple. Mountain Madness = inside the mountain labeled as Rock World Zone. The mountain on the windows would the other mountain that is right next to it, depicted on the top part of the map.
  14. DigitalDuck


    Arriving four years late. Member
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    I don't see a mountain labelled Rock World Zone. There's a mountain beside it, but where the label is is just forest. Blue Lake Zone is potentially a mountain.

    EDIT: Derp, you're talking about the Present map. I assumed we were talking about the Past map.
  15. XCubed


    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    A tiny bit off topic, but was the giant ring ever present in Sonic 2 at any point in development? They changed how special stages were accessed, using the starposts + 50 rings at any point in the level. If the giant ring was present in earlier builds, perhaps it could have led to the "Warp Point?"... But it could also be said that the giant ring was just a carryover from Sonic 1 data. Of course things changed again with Sonic 3 which turned out to be a more permanent formula.
  16. Antheraea


    Bug Hunter Member
    I don't recall any of the alphas we have (Nick Arcade + Simon Wai betas) having any implementation of the giant ring. If it is implemented, it is not mentioned anywhere on the wiki.

    (and the wiki is giving me a Bad Gateway error so I can't even check)

    Mind you, the Nick Arcade proto is early enough to still be using a ton of Sonic 1 assets, so you'd think that the concept would be in there if they originally planned on using it.
  17. Uberham


    King Of Oblivion Member
    I daresay the plan would be "make the zones, make sure they work, then make the warp zones/world map" because even if you're late, you'd still have enough zones to make a game, just without said gimmicks.
  18. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    From the video and the timeline document, I'm pretty sure the player wouldn't have been able to freely travel between timezones. Rather, it would have been tied to the story like in Sonic '06. So Warp Point/Hidden Shrine would have been visited at specific points when the story called for it, and it's extremely unlikely it would have been accessed via giant rings.
  19. Kat



    "This was an idea for water-level. Character has to prepare floating platform in a certain time." [Link]
  20. bookman the stinky

    bookman the stinky

    literal trash Member
    the dong
    find motivation
    Wasnt this in CD with the cork blocks in Tidal Tempest?