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Hirokazu Yasuhara revealing all kinds of Sonic development stuff

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, May 22, 2017.

  1. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Maybe the entrance is just covered by the big tag? What do you suggest, then?


    By the way, anyone with the Sonic Jam official guide around? Please?
     
  2. Glaber

    Glaber

    Has Beaten Sonic Genesis for GBA Oldbie
    is it possible that there is a version of the maps without lables?

    Ice, I may not have the guide, but I have found it on ebay.
    I have an active listing here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonic-JAM-official-guide-book/272448872317?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40130%26meid%3Da98ae66b13f644a19dd146842ec38460%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D172642866494
     
  3. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    They don't collapse leaving a plain cliff face, though.

    The same developers that said Dust Hill was the desert zone? The same developers that explicitly chose the desert zone over Mystic Cave when presented with the name "Dust Hill"? Why should we trust their memory on one thing but not on another? I'm suggesting that it was dropped early in development, not even making it past the drawing board, and as such was replaced before the name was well enough known by the developers, instead barely remembering it as "a zone that was scrapped, like maybe a desert or something".

    Maybe it wasn't a desert. Is that grass? It's somewhat ambiguous, but I won't argue that point. Maybe it was dropped for being too similar to both Emerald Hill and Hill Top.
     
  4. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    I'm afraid I don't currently have that much in my bank account. =\

    Somebody in here might already own it though, this probably being the biggest Sonic fan community and all...
     
  5. Dehry

    Dehry

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    This is the thread post 9 years ago that solidified the belief Dust Hill was the desert level.

    http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=12023

    After being given a picture of Mystic Cave and the desert level

     
  6. Some Japanese manual scans of the island from a different perspective that I completely forgot about. I do see a cave area inside a mountain (with a waterfall spitting out of it)


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    @Dehry
    Yeah, that's what this was about:

    If you're choosing to ignore the new stuff that this topic is about, well, that's fine I guess.
     
  8. Montblanc

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    Ice Cap uses some stuff from S2 Hidden Palace. The walls look like rocks, there is space between the surface where you walk and the ground, diagonal pillars of ice, glowing orbs in the underground background, water, and if I'm not wrong the bridges shine when you step on them.

    ---

    About the Dust Hill location, it's sad the images are in black and white, color could give us clues of what kind of terrain it has around. In Sonic 1 SMS it's green, that would be the equivalent of the NOW map. The GHZ in forces (keep in mind it's probable that it isn't even the same GHZ on the same island) is sorrounded with sand for some reason, making that GHZ look like it was an oasis.

    The only the map shows for DHZ s a few rocks in the surface, and a few more in the water like in the original Metropolis Zone spot.


    Edit:
    That cave is where the Death Egg is in the original maps, sorrounded by water.
     
  9. Dehry

    Dehry

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    I just thought it would be good to post the source post. Some people don't remember anything other than the conclusion.

    E: I'm on team Mystic Cave = Dust Hill.
     
  10. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    This is not about "choosing teams" (at least not anymore, not sure about back then to be honest), it's about development documents just being unearthed and them seemingly contradicting what, until now, was assumed correct based on speculation and 10 year old memories.
     
  11. Dehry

    Dehry

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    I'm not disagreeing with that. I was so excited by the news that I dusted off my years dead account to post. This content isn't targeted at you, just some of the other posters.

    My whole takeaway from it has been we're not getting any more scrapped Sonic 2 levels, but what was planned and didn't get off paper was awesome.
     
  12. Ah, I see. Funny looking at the maps now show how the team reused the ol' "stick an egg in a mountain" idea long before Sonic 3/S&K. :P
     
  13. rata

    rata

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    Trying to be useful somehow.
    So, regarding to this S3 concept of the icy zone:
    [​IMG]


    Isn't that 'christmas' tree Hilltop's bloody tree? I mean Brenda would know better than anybody if her tree was reused and she never mentioned it, but who knows?
     
  14. Kat

    Kat

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    I agree that the S3 winter zone concept art seen in the video was probably originally created for the winter zone in S2 (just like Metropolis Zone's was confirmed to be reused for Flying Battery). I'm probably reaching now, but both concept arts (desert zone fake screenshot/color test) seem to be composed similarly (Sonic not on the ground, transition to area with different background, etc.). Note that the coloring should be ignored (the pictures were recolored when repurposed for S3).

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Blast Brothers

    Blast Brothers

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    Okay, here goes...
    I'd like to start off by saying that I respect the logic and thought put into the ideas already brought up. However, I have my own ideas on what this new information means. Feel free to critique- a good discussion will get us closer to reality than any one statement can.


    The newly revealed artwork gives us names of three (maybe four- I'll get to that later) desert-sounding zones: Dust/Junk/Garbage Hill, Rock World, and Sandy Shower. Now, one thing to remember: whenever a developer has been pressed on the issue, they've responded that there was, at one point in time, a "desert level". Not "desert levels", as this artwork would initially seem to suggest. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the other two zone names refer to something else. One of the names should, in theory, have a link to Mystic Cave, since it's already well-established in even the earliest of builds that went past Sega circa 1992. The desert mockup that's been floating around for years likely fits in here somewhere as well.


    To begin, let's go over everything we can garner from the level names themselves, and how they relate to Mystic Cave and/or the mockup image.
    Dust/Junk/Garbage Hill doesn't immediately conjure images of any one zone from Sonic 2 -final or otherwise- and especially not Mystic Cave, as it's been stated earlier. Nowhere in the entire zone is there any sign of dust, junk, disrepair, or whatever "dust" means in this context. If anything, Mystic Cave has stood the test of time quite well- every ancient structure and contraption appears pristine:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Therefore, Mystic Cave Zone does not have any link to the Dust Hill name, despite having its level slot. Nothing else adds up.

    Now on to Rock World, which I've said previously matches closely with Mystic Cave. Let me explain: Rock World (based on the newly discovered maps) is located either in or near a forest or close to a mountain.

    What does this mean? Well, if you think Mystic Cave is an underground forest... well, it's next to a forest. And if you think it's a rocky, underground cave, then there's a mountain for it to be in close by. All the bases are covered!

    Note of potential significance: "Rock World Zone" appears in two different times, and is the only zone to do so. Therefore, it is possible that there are actually two Rock World Zones- one being either something unseen or a combination of Wood Zone (given its proximity to the area) and a more forest-like Mystic Cave, while the other is what ended up in the final game. (These maps showed plans for two Genocide Cities, after all.) I don't think Endless Mine has anything to do with this, but I could be wrong...

    That leaves Sand Shower, easily the most desert-sounding name of the three. Even if it's a botched translation, "Sand" is pretty clear, and "Shower" implies something falling from the sky. Separately, we know that soon after these maps (or during their creation if it's Blue Lake), a winter zone reusing the desert zone's assets was in the works. As someone has already stated:
    Look at the mockup with this in mind; couldn't that sand to the right be easily made to look like snow?
    [​IMG]

    This leaves Dust/Garbage/Junk Hill as the only name without a corresponding theme idea. Nothing we've seen matches it.

    oh wait
    [​IMG]

    Now, I admit this is a stretch, but we don't know how much leeway Sonic 3's developers took with the source material.
    The things pointing to this being Dust Hill are:
    • The mountains appear similar to Emerald Hill Zone's background; keep in mind that the two zones would have been close to each other on the world map
    • The palm trees gel with those found in the same spot in the other timelines
    • There may or may not be water behind the first set of mountains; if there is, it would make the Emerald Hill ties stronger
    • It definitely couldn't have been palette swapped for a winter zone
    • It's crumbling apart (as you can see in the top view), befitting a dystopian time
    Based on all of what I've found, I conclude:
    • Dust Hill is either Desert Palace or something never seen before
    • Sand Shower is the mockup level
    • Rock World Zone (Now2) is Mystic Cave
    • Rock World Zone (Past) is either Wood Zone combined with proto Mystic Cave or something never before seen
    And there you have it.
     
  16. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    While there may be a possibility for Dust Hill not being Mystic Cave if we ignore that they still assigned it that name when reworking the Level Select screen, I think the "there's no dust" argument needs to die already, since dust-related health issues are actually one of the big problems that miners face when working and Mystic Cave is a man-made kind of cave (a mine), as Blast Brothers just pointed out.

    So the "dust" bit does seem to add up.
     
  17. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

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    We don't need to speculate on Dust Hill/Mystic Cave connection. All we're gonna achieve are more 'ifs', not facts. Also, Aquatic Ruin was called Neo Green Hill, which doesn't make too much sense.
     
  18. Montblanc

    Montblanc

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    Keeping the old names when the level select was cleaned from scrapped levels can have a simple answer: perhaps the person that was given that task didn't know or got the final names so he or she only did what was asked for, clean an re-arrange the list.

    It makes sense if other people was using that screen to do their job.

    A few pages before someone compared the betas: after that, they implemented the title cards with the final names, but with the old level select. In the next build level select was changed to the final version with the final names and order.
     
  19. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Yeah... but it's again "perhaps this happened" versus "this is what we do have". I think we may be able to get more accurate answers by looking at what we have instead of theorizing around it.
     
  20. Dehry

    Dehry

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    That would still imply there's a "Neo Green Hill" and "Dust Hill" zone that exists in another beta that was scrapped. Meanwhile Wood Zone and Hidden Palace (if that really is what they're named :rolleyes:/> ) were left intact.