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Hirokazu Yasuhara revealing all kinds of Sonic development stuff

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, May 22, 2017.

  1. LukyHRE

    LukyHRE

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    With those facts in mind, there are two possibilities:

    1. Dust Hill Zone is a level we've never seen before, it's name a reference to the fact it's a ruined present version of Green Hill Zone. The fact that that name is used for Mystic Cave Zone (and because of that, reported as it by every magazine) is purely coincidential, possibily because MCZ was written in the same slot as DHZ after it was canned.
    2. Dust Hill Zone is the prototype name for MCZ, this is supported by the name used on the prototypes, and the fact that caves are dusty. Also, they kept the name after reworking the level select screen.
    I am personally more inclined to the first option, even more after GoldS observation that in some contexts, ??? has been used to mean "garbage" or "junk". I can't connect visually DHZ to the final MCZ. But, we can't rule out the other option with the info we currently have. Contradicting info, even. Yasuhara claiming DHZ was the desert level, when the concept art released says it was named Sand Shower Zone, still bugs me.
     
  2. Chainspike

    Chainspike

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    Hidden Palace Zone is listed, but selecting it does nothing in Beta 4. Through the use of codes it's simply a garbled mess. Beta 4 is the only known/found prototype after the Simon Wai one....so I don't understand what you mean?
     
  3. Glaber

    Glaber

    Has Beaten Sonic Genesis for GBA Oldbie
    I'm With Iceknight on this as what he's saying makes the most sence, and has evidence to back it up.

    Ice, To help with the Dust Hill Issue, I want to address another Zone's name, When did Neo Green Hill get renamed to Aquatic Ruin? I would like to assume it was the same version that Dust Hill got renamed to Mystic Cave
     
  4. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Oh hey you're right, I should have re-checked before replying.

    I guess we shouldn't rely so much on memories!


    Yep, same versions ("Beta 6" for title cards, "Beta 7" for the Level Select entries).
     
  5. I'm confused now. Are we saying that past developer interviews where the Dust Hill mock ups where confirmed as being DH are now null and void?
     
  6. Glaber

    Glaber

    Has Beaten Sonic Genesis for GBA Oldbie
    In the light of the NEW Evidence, yes. Old confirmed information can be rendered wrong when new evidence is presented or revealed.

    I think it's safe to assume that when we first asked the devs about "Dust Hill" and the Desert zone, those devs had gone for years without thinking about Sonic 2's development. And as a result of Us fans mistaking what we now know may be Sand Shower, and showing the devs the mock up calling it Dust Hill, we may be responsible for that wrong confirmation.

    Our first confirmation was only as good as the information the Devs had on hand.
     
  7. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Well, at least that's what Yasuhara's reveal that's been discussed in this topic, along with the scanned docs we already had, seem to prove.

    EDIT: Oh, beaten by seconds. =P
     
  8. Montblanc

    Montblanc

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    I tought about the same possibility, but it had to be after the document ICEknight linked, if not it would specify which one just like it does with the timeline. That is why I said that since the game changed so much through development there is not a single answer anymore, it changes depending of the stage of development the game was at that moment.

    What if the name was swapped, just like Aquatic Ruin became a "Green Hill" for a brief period of time, or the level was redone completely after the time travel idea was scrapped? That would explain why they identified that version of the desert level as Dust Hill. Just like Desert Dazzle inspired Mirage Saloon. Or perhaps they assumed the first name we said, in any case we don't have definitive proof so at least in my case I will call it "desert level" again.


    ---

    And now looking again at the maps, nobody noticed that the "bad present" map is the only that has missing parts of the island? The area with palmtrees for Green Hill/Hill Top, the Wood/Blue Lake, Metropolis, Oceand Wind and Tropical Plant are gone.


    Edit: This new evidence is actually older, since it was done when the time travel was still planned. The people involved in the development of the game saw it being implemented, so their testimonies are more recent.
     
  9. I wouldn't trust 100% anything developers say 15-20 years after the fact... How much do YOU remember about work you did 15-20 years ago? Specially the parts that were just ideas that didn't even make the final cut? I'm not saying all they say is bullshit, only that there will be contradictions when you cross information from different people, because there's no way everyone will remember stuff that happened over 15 years ago the same way, and we shouldn't take everything that's said as absolute truth, unless there are documents, prototypes or whatever to serve as proof, something that couldn't have been tempered with during all this time, unlike human memory.
     
  10. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Actually, the only info we have directly contradicts that. From the Wiki:
    As for Dust Hill being Mystic Cave, I find that unlikely, given that the map doesn't show anything even resembling a cave, and the name doesn't suggest a cave, not to mention none of the staff associating the name "Dust Hill" with the art of Mystic Cave.

    I have an alternate explanation:

    Both Sand Shower and Dust Hill were intended to be desert levels, with one of the two zones being the "Dust Hill" we know (more likely Sand Shower, I'd say, given the Rock World Zone connections). After development started, the idea of two desert levels was considered overkill, and a replacement was designed instead. This zone was not yet named, so they kept the existing name until a replacement was found. The developers are hazy on the name "Dust Hill" because it was dropped very early in development.
     
  11. Glaber

    Glaber

    Has Beaten Sonic Genesis for GBA Oldbie
    What makes evidence new is not when it was created, but when it's revealed, or discovered. It like with a Trial when new evidence is presented and it contradicts a witnesses' testimony. How long ago that testimony was has no relevance on how correct it is.
     
  12. We need a timeline of events really. I'm not sure we should take the map so literally, as it seems it's an idea from very early in development. Dust Hill (complete with mock ups) seems to me to appear from a later date.

    Edit: what I'm basically saying it would be silly to throw away the years of research we have just from seeing one very early idea.
     
  13. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    It's not really throwing away "years of research"... What's been disproven with this was just one question which was asked to two people via e-mail and chatroom...


    Hm, I guess I was misremembering Brenda's answer:
    EDIT: ...From (yikes!) 16 years ago already.
     
  14. Montblanc

    Montblanc

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    Well, if it was something special like the sequel of a good selling game I would remember a bit of what I did, even more if my work was thrown away, but that is because I like videogames. :v:/>

    I hope we can find someday documentation for when the time travel was scrapped to compare.


    I was talking about the information being in chronological order, that's why I wrote older in italics, sorry if it was not clear.

    What I meant is that if their testimonies had any info that happened after the documents were written, that can change the truth since they were present and know events that happened in a larger period of time (as long as that information can be verified, for example asking another person without forcing the answer we want).
     
  15. Glaber

    Glaber

    Has Beaten Sonic Genesis for GBA Oldbie
    Unfortunately, we may have tainted any early testimony by calling the concept art/ screen of Sand Shower by Mystic Cave's Development name. To be fair though, most of that assuming was done when we were still kids or teens.

    We kinda already have that. we can use the concept art that was newly revealed as the start point. Our next bit is the Nick Arcade beta. This is where we see our first few Zones for Sonic 2. Green (Emerald) Hill, Chemical Plant, Hidden Palace, and Hill Top.
    Sound test order is as follows: Green Hill S1, Labyrinth, Marble (Chemical Plant), Star light (Emerald Hill), Spring Yard (Hidden palace), and Scrap Brain (Hill Top)

    Next up is the Simon Wai Prototype where we have the first appearance of Neo Green Hill (Aquatic Ruin), Dust Hill (Mystic Cave, name mistaken for Desert Level's by fandom), Metropolis zone, Oil Ocean, Casino Night, Wood Zone, Genocide City (name only) and Death Egg (Name only.)
    This was the beta we first got our hands on back in 1999.
    Sound test order, Skipping non zone music, is as follows: Oil Ocean (Casino Night 2P), Green (Emerald) Hill, Metropolis, Casino Night, Dust Hill, Hidden Palace (Mystic Cave 2P), Neo Green Hill, Death Egg, Chemical Plant, Sky Chase, Sand Shower? (Oil Ocean), Oil Ocean in Final again, Sky Fortress, Wood? (Emerald Hill 2P), Hill top, and Hill Top
    Wood Zone here Used Metropolis' BGM, Hidden Palace used what was later learned to be the correct tune, Oil Ocean Used Casino Night 2p's BGM, Casino Night's art was messed up, Genocide City Use Chemical Plant's BGM (and was empty), and Death Egg was Silent.
    Something to note is that the Level select screen here would appear to follow the level order from the recently revealed concept art.
    [​IMG]

    Then we have the beta series with beta 4 being the first we have access to. This one Removes Genocide City, Wood Zone, and Hidden Palace is disabled and its art assets removed.
    We also have are first known appearance of Sky chase and Sky Fortress. Casino Night also now has new art too.
    Sound test order is as follows: Green (Emerald) Hill, Mystic Cave 2 player, Oil Ocean, Metropolis, Hill Top, Neo Green Hill (Aquatic Ruin) Casino Night 2 player, Casino Night, Death Egg, Dust Hill (Mystic Cave), Emerald Hill 2 Player (Wood zone?), Sky Chase, Chemical Plant, Sky Fortress, Hidden Palace (Super cutscene)
    While Wood and Genocide City are gone, Sky Chase and Sky Fortress still fit with the original level order suggested by the concept art
    [​IMG]

    With beta5 a few Zones got renamed. These zones are as follows: Green Hill - Emerald Hill, Dust Hill - Mystic Cave, Neo Green Hill, and Sky Fortress - Wing Fortress
    These changes only happened on the title cards.
    Sound test order is as follows: Emerald Hill, Mystic Cave 2 player, Oil Ocean, Metropolis, Hill Top, Aquatic Ruin, Casino Night 2 player, Casino Night, Death Egg, Mystic Cave, Emerald Hill 2 Player, Sky Chase, Chemical Plant, Wing Fortress, Hidden Palace (Super cutscene)

    In Beta 6, the name change was not yet applied to the level select menu.

    In Beta 7, the Stage Select Screen was finally updated to reflect the final level order, Hidden Palace was removed from the list (but somehow got an icon only sonic 3 revealed)
    [​IMG]

    With Beta 8, things were pretty much finalized with what levels where where, what music they got, and some how, the sound test still reflects an order that partly resembles the order from the newly revealed concept art.


    This is in no way complete, and I'm sure there are details that were missed, but I think I got enough to use with the concept are to figure out a few things.
     
  16. Blue Spikeball

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    Gotta love all the flip-flopping the scene does regarding the development of Sonic 2 :)

    "Dust Hill is the desert level. No it's not, there's no evidence to that. Oh wait, according to Yasuhara it is. No, nevermind, these newly revealed documents show that there was a level called Sand Shower, so that must be the desert level's name."

    "They may have planned time travel for Sonic 2. No they didn't, there's no real evidence supporting that. Stop you mindless speculation. Oh wait, they actually planned it! The concept art for Banper says so!"

    Personally, I have to agree with LukyHRE. I feel the most likely possibility is that Dust Hill was going to be a separate level from MCZ and the desert zone, but after the time travel concept was scrapped, it was replaced with MCZ. I mean, just compare these levels: Emerald/Green Hill, Hill Top, and Mystic Cave. Which one stands out? The graphics and layouts of MCZ show no cues as to it being related to EHZ, unlike HTZ. Besides, Dust/Junk/Garbage Hill makes me picture a ravaged version of Emerald/Green Hill, rather than a cave :v:
     
  17. @Glaber - Legend, nice on for doing that. Maybe a new section could be added to the wiki 'development timeline'?
     
  18. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

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    Holy fuck, this is a huge reveal!

    I can't really add much that hasn't already been said, but I will say this: forget about the GHZ clouds in Sand Shower's mockup! Are you people really that foolish to think there was some kind of a connection here? It's totally obvious what happened:

    "I'm drawing a new tileset from scratch for a game that has barely entered production, we need clouds in the sky, and I haven't drawn any yet. Oh, here, some clouds from the first level of the first game, that'll do for now!"

    There is nothing more to this. Please focus on serious things and not insane conjecture.

    -----

    Anyhow, as interesting as this all is, I'm honestly glad that the game ended up like it did. This would've sucked and felt nothing like a proper Sonic game.

    If time travel is to be done, SCD's method is far, far better. And honestly, as much as I love SCD, I'm not sure the way it was done there really served that game well, either. Sonic is about getting to the end of the level, having to drop everything you're doing just to transition between alternate versions of the level, while a cool gimmick, runs directly counter to the core gameplay design. That's not even mentioning the fact that it didn't even work as originally intended due to technical limitations (it was supposed to be immediate, running off a CD killed that). Heh, might've been better as a cart game, in that case.

    Not that it's THAT bad in SCD, but it was more than a little clunky. Made worse by the 5 second requirement in the original game, Windows port changed it to 3 seconds. Perhaps it would be better if you immediately transitioned by just passing a time-travel post when going fast, rather than having to maintain your speed.
     
  19. doc eggfan

    doc eggfan

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    Dust Hill Mines: Reinforced by only the very best quaility Green Hills timber.
     
  20. Andrew75

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    I bet dust hill zone's background was just a recolor of Emerald hill zone, look at the grassy hills in the background, Change it to the color of the dirt exposed on that one hill and poof. one more possible idea lol
    And I still think mystic cave was rock world zone, it may even have had a different background, so that it wasn't a cave.