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Hidden Palace; theories

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by SMTP, Nov 14, 2006.

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  1. SMTP

    SMTP

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    I say GHZ was going to be a 2P only zone.
     
  2. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    You know, that would have actually been really nice.
     
  3. RAMPKORV

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    Yep. That was what I used to do in the old days. While on that, I still believe that the big green emerald is there just to prevent the water to flood. It's such a neat level design, where you'd typically arrive at the slope first, wondering what to do, to later move backwards to find out that you'd have to break the emerald. There'd be a platform or similar at the slope that you could stand on. Also explains why there'd be water flowing at the top of the slope. Perhaps even better, you wouldn't break the emerald - just move it slightly just to jump onto it and float with it.

    And I guess nobody has found a cartridge with a colorized sonic 2 ending yet :\
     
  4. nineko

    nineko

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    You know, your theory isn't that bad. Maybe the emerald wasn't moved by Sonic at all, it was just raised by the water itself, like those things in LZ.
    The problem with your theory, unfortunately, is that it's a theory.
     
  5. Tweaker

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    We've stopped making theories because for the most part, we're beyond them, because we have sound, technical evidence to back up the few statements and theories we DO make.

    You wanna know the truth? Here it is:

    - GHZ was strictly a test zone. NOTHING ELSE. It was used to test the two player system before EHZ was implemented, and was most likely not being used anymore by this point, due to the fact that the collision data was still the Sonic 1 variety.

    - ARZ was not thought of by this point (or at least not implemented). Most likely the first two existing zones were Hidden Palace and Desert Zone, judging by both available mockups at the time and the level of completion for HPZ (and the fact that the alpha backdrop is still in this build). From then on they created EHZ, HTZ, and CPZ.

    - HPZ's emerald was intended to be breakable -- nothing else. This is a quote directly from the level designer himself, and no matter how much you "wish" or what it "could have been," it wasn't, unless you have evidence to prove otherwise, without a doubt.

    Come on, people! Just because we have a new beta doesn't give us an excuse to go back in time and start spewing shit out of our asses again. Be mindful of all our discoveries thus far, and take them into account before lending your thoughts. We're here to weed out the stupidity - not create it.
     
  6. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    Theories are a backbone of this community.


    Remember back when there was a theory that the HPZ emerald was breakable, years before we had proof?

    Also, about that...I remember a long time ago, me and Lost were talking. We both found it odd that the HPZ emerald didn't use the same code as the other breakable blocks. If you recall, both the breakable blocks in HTZ and CPZ share the same code.

    So, if it were to be breakable, then why make a new object? We always have to keep in mind the possibility that they were mistaken when they remember such obscure things from so long ago.
     
  7. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo

    Your friendly neighbourhood lemming. Oldbie
    Not to mention the tube doesn't even go anywhere. THEORY WARNING Perhaps the emerald would be broken, causing water to erupt from the bottom "filling up" the level and allowing you to float up that lift shaft to the top like Rampkorv suggested?
     
  8. Tweaker

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    When you make the emerald "breakable," you'll notice it splits directly in half. Doesn't that look like shit? I'd bet if they were gonna make it breakable at one point, then they would've revamped the object so that when it breaks, it breaks up right.

    And ponder this one - there's no breakable objects in this beta. HPZ wasn't worked on past this beta, at all... Does that add up for you? It wasn't made breakable because the level was never worked on ONE BIT since this beta! They didn't even HAVE breakable objects like that yet. So in the meantime, why not make it solid as a placeholder? Everyone wins!
     
  9. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo

    Your friendly neighbourhood lemming. Oldbie
    The odd thing is the extent to which HPZ was finished. The bat badniks for example, have their own routine. The bridges glow. If they were willing to take the time to get it that complete, why not finish the job at the time by getting the emerald smashable. It seems very weird.
     
  10. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    Well...Lost actually told me that the breakable blocks in HTZ and CPZ were based on the breakable blocks in S1, so they could have just used that.
    Actually....This is only because of the way Esreal made it break. Look at the rock in HTZ for example. It breaks into like four pieces and looks good. Yet when I edit the mappings to fit my own art, it only splits in half because of how I worked my mappings.
     
  11. Tweaker

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    Probably because "something came up" and work was halted on the level in favor of other things... It's possible that they WERE intending to work on it more (auto-spin might show that), but by the time they were finally ready to do so, they were out of "available" ROM space, and had to scrap it. I bet that if they did some optimization, they could've easily fit HPZ into the final build... but then again, there was still another act to design, so that's more level layout and etc they would have to cram together... I guess they found it easier to just ditch the level instead of working on optimizing their ROM to allow for it to fit. A shame, too, because Esrael and many others have shown that it is indeed possible to fit ALL of the lost levels in, and still stay within the 1MB cartridge limit they were working with.

    Sure, it was "based on" the object... but that doesn't mean it IS the object. Obviously they hadn't made their modifications yet, or the breakable blocks would've been in by now.

    Well then, I guess the mappings weren't how they should've been yet, were they? They would've had to go back and fix those later... but did they? Nope, and that's the point I'm trying to make.
     
  12. Sonic Hachelle-Bee

    Sonic Hachelle-Bee

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    It splits in half because Esrael wanted it that way. I managed to make it break into several parts, in half, that's good.

    That's exactly what I was thinking, just by seeing the rings position and the water direction going to the right. Anyway, that's old theory.
     
  13. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo

    Your friendly neighbourhood lemming. Oldbie
    It'd be so easy to add it in. For example something from S1 like Rika suggested, like the Marble Zone breakable blocks, which break into 4 nice pieces.
    The level doesn't make sense if you go down the tube because you die. Yet if you somehow were able to get up that "lift shaft" you reach the boss area, which in the Final version of the game locks the camera..
     
  14. Scarred Sun

    Scarred Sun

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    Welp, this.
    I'm sure someone must have seen this seven years ago or whatnot, but I thought I'd bring it up because I noticed it when writing the palette offsets for this new prototype:

    Hidden Palace Zone's palette swatches are almost IDENTICAL to that of Green Hill Zone's—it took me a lot of studying before I finally differentiated the two (I think there's two or three different colors out of what, 36?) and otherwise they're in the same order and everything.

    Perhaps HPZ was actually meant to be first after all? An opening cutscene explaining the seventh emerald that quickly got moved to an actual level?
     
  15. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    EHZ's pallet is almost exactly the same as GHZ's. I'm sure the Desert zone was no different.
     
  16. Sonic Hachelle-Bee

    Sonic Hachelle-Bee

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    You die because there are no chunks placed below. Chunks at this place look like they had been placed so that when you look down, you see nothing strange. I can't see where there is a "boss area" in the Final version of HPZ. This is just the same thing, without any camera lock BTW.

    Going up that "lift shaft" causes at least one major problem. Raise the water here and you have to change your background for example... How can you do that here so that it doesn't look too weird?
     
  17. Tweaker

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    How are you able to determine what's "easy" and what's not? By word of mouth? Don't even try and say "oh, that's easy" unless you are fully capable of doing so, know what's involved, and the like... Not because some egotistical pompous bitch who thinks they're the shit says everything is easy, whether it is for other people or not.

    The level "doesn't make sense" because it was NEVER COMPLETED. I think that's something we've all known for a while now, and what we know even more is that it hasn't been worked on since an earlier time than we initially though. You can take any farfetched theory and apply to it to a situation and have it "make sense" -- a lot of things can make sense in a lot of situations. But how the hell does that get held in a higher regard and belief from the SOLID FACTS that we all know, resulting from hours, even weeks, of research?

    We have a TESTIMONY as to what the emerald was intended for. Was that intention ever fulfilled? No. Does it make sense? Not at the moment, because it was an IN-DEVELOPMENT level which was NOT COMPLETED. Does your theory seem reasonable when applied to HPZ in its incomplete state? Sure, why the hell not. Does that make it true? Absolutely not. Unless you have sound evidence to back up your theory OTHER than the incomplete state of an eventually-scrapped level, I see no reason why it should be taken with more than a grain of salt.
     
  18. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo

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    Calm down Tweaker jeez XD I'm not being egotistical, I'm just trying to make a judgment based on what I imagine the programmers skills were compared to our skills.

    Interesting about the chunks. So would the camera freeze when going down that tube so you'd "drop off" the bottom of the level yet survive somehow?
     
  19. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    OMG, I never noticed it, but look...HPZ BG is designed with level wraping in mind:


    [​IMG]
     
  20. Quexinos

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    GO Tweeker! no really, you go! I hate Master Emerald theories and the like... it's nice to see someone sticking to what the facts are. Sorry everyone else, but no matter how much you want it, the man who designed the level himself said it was just a breakable object.

    and I noticed that about level wrapping in HPZ a while back, it was so easy to make a level with that background in Click and Create XD

    BTW I always thought it was funny that HPZ's music in the final Sonic 2 was soo sad like "Aww I didn't get to be a level ;__;"... oh well
     
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