Has there ever been a trick to that notorious Sonic 3 cheat?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MarzSyndrome, Apr 10, 2010.

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  1. Overlord

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    If anyone's in doubt about S3 being planned with Knuckles' jump height in mind, you don't even have to leave the very first level - Knuckles simply cannot get up to Sonic's section at the breakable wall without debug.
     
  2. Fred

    Fred

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    You mean this?

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-iZJpPXFeEE&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-iZJpPXFeEE&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    Yes, I know it wasn't intended.

    Wow, I only made that video two years ago.
     
  3. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=455089:date=May 16 2010, 08:31 PM:name=Overlord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Overlord @ May 16 2010, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455089">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anyone's in doubt about S3 being planned with Knuckles' jump height in mind, you don't even have to leave the very first level - Knuckles simply cannot get up to Sonic's section at the breakable wall without debug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It was planned, that's for sure. But with their limited tools, designing levels without a test Knuckles is very dangerous.
    There are three things that come into mind: Speed, Jump height, and glidefly descent. Those things are so affected by gameplay, that a test player is needed.

    I did a search for a Knuckles player in Sonic 3, but there was none. For now the MGZ1 midboss's rising platform tells me that there must have been a test player, or else that wouldn't have been a priority until later in production.


    <!--quoteo(post=455142:date=May 16 2010, 11:38 PM:name=Neo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neo @ May 16 2010, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455142">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean this?

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-iZJpPXFeEE&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-iZJpPXFeEE&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    Yes, I know it wasn't intended.

    Wow, I only made that video two years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's such a failure lol. Anyone could miss that. A monitor changing to direction of a glidefly operation. Good find!
     
  4. Overlord

    Overlord

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    <!--quoteo(post=455142:date=May 16 2010, 09:38 PM:name=Neo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neo @ May 16 2010, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455142">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean this?

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-iZJpPXFeEE&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-iZJpPXFeEE&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    Yes, I know it wasn't intended.

    Wow, I only made that video two years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Smartarse. XP My point stands, though - you can't continue from there.
     
  5. Fred

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    I didn't mean to sound like a pompous faggot, I'm just genuinely surprised that video ended up coming in handy two years later.
     
  6. Tiddles

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    Worth remembering, though, that it's really the breakability of that rock on the platform above the breakable wall that determines who can get up to the high route in AIZ. If Knuckles could stand on it, he could easily reach the higher platform. (You can prove this by using a hacked Knuckles savegame in S&KC Sonic 3). Sure, in S3K and S&KC he's then defeated by the character-specific boss positioning, but that wasn't the case in MD S3 alone. I don't know whether Sonic could make it there without the rock, either, without a lightning shield or hyper.

    I'm pretty sure the low jump height was planned, nevertheless - there are still a few places that seem to be designed that way, e.g. MGZ2.
     
  7. dsrb

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    <!--quoteo(post=454426:date=May 14 2010, 07:06 PM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ May 14 2010, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=454426">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What confuses me is that the separate paths for Sonic and Knuckles are far more distinct and pronounced in the Sonic 3 zones than they are in the SK zones. [lots of examples]
    It's almost as if they designed Sonic 3 for separate characters, and then forgot about them in Sonic & Knuckles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--quoteo(post=454745:date=May 15 2010, 09:52 PM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ May 15 2010, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=454745">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=454742:date=May 15 2010, 09:46 PM:name=StephenUK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StephenUK @ May 15 2010, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=454742">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All of Knuckles' bosses were made more challenging in some way, such as the dual LBZ1 bosses, the up and down mechanism of the ICZ2 boss always moving, the constant flame on the FBZ2 boss etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And this is something else; most of S&K's bosses have no difference between Sonic and Knuckles. Only MHZ1 and FBZ2 have any difference at all. Again, it's like they completely forgot about Knuckles in S&K.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I hadn't considered S&K's relative deficiency of Knuckles-specific areas or bosses in S&K, which is interesting (and a tad ironic). Solaris Paradox's points are 'food for thought':

    <!--quoteo(post=454508:date=May 14 2010, 11:50 PM:name=Solaris Paradox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ May 14 2010, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=454508">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flying Battery was supposed to come after Carnival Night Zone, which might account for why it's not designed with any radically different paths for Knuckles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--quoteo(post=454526:date=May 15 2010, 12:48 AM:name=Solaris Paradox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ May 15 2010, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=454526">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, ALL of the S&K levels that lack significant Knuckles-only alternate pathways appeared in the level select menu: Flying Battery, Mushroom Valley, and Sandopolis. The others are mysteriously absent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
     
  8. The Game Collector

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    Whoa, I just did the code right on the first try on the Sonic Jam version of Sonic 3 using the 2nd model of the Sega Saturn controller. I hadn't tried to input the code in years.

    EDIT: after checking it out on the Genesis again, it became obvious to me that in the Sonic Jam version they made the timing easier where you could continue to input the code even while the screen had already changed to the title screen.

    So if anyone wants to access the screen, the easiest solution is get Sonic Jam for Sega Saturn if you are continuously annoyed by the original's difficulty.
     
  9. StephenUK

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    <!--quoteo(post=456011:date=May 19 2010, 01:05 AM:name=The Game Collector)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Game Collector @ May 19 2010, 01:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=456011">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whoa, I just did the code right on the first try on the Sonic Jam version of Sonic 3 using the 2nd model of the Sega Saturn controller. I hadn't tried to input the code in years.

    EDIT: after checking it out on the Genesis again, it became obvious to me that in the Sonic Jam version they made the timing easier where you could continue to input the code even while the screen had already changed to the title screen.

    So if anyone wants to access the screen, the easiest solution is get Sonic Jam for Sega Saturn if you are continuously annoyed by the original's difficulty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    IIRC, they made the cheat significantly easier on the Sonic Jam port, by relaxing the timing, or maybe removing the timing altogether. I can do it every time on the Sonic Jam version, but have only managed it once on the MD version.

    EDIT: Must have missed the part where you mentioned the removed timing, so this point was already covered. My bad I guess.
     
  10. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=456170:date=May 19 2010, 03:42 PM:name=StephenUK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StephenUK @ May 19 2010, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=456170">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=456011:date=May 19 2010, 01:05 AM:name=The Game Collector)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Game Collector @ May 19 2010, 01:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=456011">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whoa, I just did the code right on the first try on the Sonic Jam version of Sonic 3 using the 2nd model of the Sega Saturn controller. I hadn't tried to input the code in years.

    EDIT: after checking it out on the Genesis again, it became obvious to me that in the Sonic Jam version they made the timing easier where you could continue to input the code even while the screen had already changed to the title screen.

    So if anyone wants to access the screen, the easiest solution is get Sonic Jam for Sega Saturn if you are continuously annoyed by the original's difficulty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    IIRC, they made the cheat significantly easier on the Sonic Jam port, by relaxing the timing, or maybe removing the timing altogether. I can do it every time on the Sonic Jam version, but have only managed it once on the MD version.

    EDIT: Must have missed the part where you mentioned the removed timing, so this point was already covered. My bad I guess.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    In Sonic Jam, you can start making the code at the title screen after the menu has come up too. So it is more than just relaxed timing.
    Sonic Jam might be machine code translated like Sonic & Knuckles Collection PC, but it really has its own Sonic 3 (as well as the other Sonic games), where Sonic & Knuckles Collection PC is more of a Sonic & Knuckles with a new Sonic 3 mode.
    There is only one downside to Sonic Jam, and it is the missing Death Egg sprite at the end of LRZ2. And that is a bad thing if you'll ask me (I love Lava Reef more than any other level, and I hate to see it broken).
     
  11. dsrb

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    <!--quoteo(post=456566:date=May 20 2010, 07:11 AM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ May 20 2010, 07:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=456566">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is only one downside to Sonic Jam, and it is the missing Death Egg sprite at the end of LRZ2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I never noticed that! Are there many other differences/bugs that aren't <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Jam#Differences_from_Mega_Drive_and_Sonic_Jam_Versions" target="_blank">documented on the wiki</a>? The only bug that comes to mind is that Knuckles' MHZ2 boss's face alternates between EggRobo and Robotnik. Edit: Oh, and the glitchy tree trunk in AIZ1.

    Side note: Another thing I don't remember (and can't test at the moment) is the following; can anyone confirm?
    <!--QuoteBegin-The page linked above+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The page linked above)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are also some enhanced sound effects, particularly in Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles where the sound effect for explosions (from monitors and enemies) is completely different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
     
  12. tummai

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    I made a little hack for Sonic 3 yesterday that enables the Sound Test/Level Select menu without needing a code. You can find it <a href="http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,10862.msg162683.html#msg162683" target="_blank">here</a>.
     
  13. nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=455142:date=May 16 2010, 10:38 PM:name=Neo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neo @ May 16 2010, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=455142">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean this?

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-iZJpPXFeEE&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-iZJpPXFeEE&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    Yes, I know it wasn't intended.

    Wow, I only made that video two years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I didn't know about this way, neat :)
    I knew about the way shown by GoldS in his S3&K glitches videos, though it might be applicable to Super/Hyper Knuckles only, not sure, so your method rocks :D
     
  14. RCC2k10

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    As for the Level Select trick, I'm not even sure it ends in four UP arrows. The way I've done it, and I still get it, is Up, Up, Down, Down, Up, Up, Up, Up, Up, Up... Up as many times as it takes until either I hear the successful ring chime or the title screen comes up. Basically:

    1. The first press Up should be pressed right after the background of the SEGA screen changes from white to black.
    2. Input the code non-stop. I can't remember where I read that it had to be entered to the beat of the music. This is not the case, but don't stop for anything in the world! Keep the same pace all around.
    3. And like I said, I get caught in the moment and end up inputting Up more than four times at the end. Maybe Up more than four times is necessary?


    <!--quoteo(post=454403:date=May 14 2010, 06:28 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ May 14 2010, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=454403">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Best part (idea) of Sonic 3 by far, is the dividable paths for Sonic & Knuckles!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I disagree. The idea was great but the execution, not so much.
    First, playing as Knuckles didn't have the feeling "I'm taking this new route because I can!" Rather, the feeling was "I'm taking this new route because I have no other choice." Some levels had artificial barriers added for Knuckles to make sure you did not have that other choice, like near the midboss at the end of Angel Island 1.

    Second, the difficulty levels were disproportionate for Knuckles. They made the earlier levels (Sonic 3) harder for Knuckles - Marble Garden's boss, Launch Base 2 underwater for the most part and the entire Angel Island 2 level, while the higher levels (Sonic & Knuckles) were made easier - Boss-less Lava Reef 2, pointless Hidden Palace and shortened Sky Sanctuary.
     
  15. dsrb

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    <!--quoteo(post=466465:date=Jun 13 2010, 12:45 AM:name=RCC2k10)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCC2k10 @ Jun 13 2010, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=466465">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not even sure it ends in four UP arrows. The way I've done it, and I still get it, is Up, Up, Down, Down…Up as many times as it takes until either I hear the successful ring chime or the title screen comes up.…I get caught in the moment and end up inputting Up more than four times at the end. Maybe Up more than four times is necessary?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I presume you haven't read <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=20435&st=75#entry443156" target="_blank">LOst's</a> <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=20435&st=75#entry443186" target="_blank">posts</a> explaining this. I've quoted a few bits I think are most relevant, but you may find the entire posts interesting.

    <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--quoteo(post=443156:date=Apr 16 2010, 02:02 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Apr 16 2010, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=443156">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The code is UP(2), DOWN(2), UP(4). Pretty easy to do within the intro time. The problem is that you'll need to hit the button and release it during an empty frame, and hit the same button again in order to register it as a button hit, and not a button hold. Also the hit must be within a Sonic frame upload. The music tempo has nothing to do with it.

    The sequence will abort (restart) if you press the wrong button.

    While the next Sonic frame is being uploaded, the button should be registered, meaning that you'll have 11 times to hit a button right, and you'll need 8 of those 11 to succeed.

    When I did that video, I pressed [UP] [UP], [DOWN], DOWN, DOWN, [DOWN], UP, [UP], UP, UP, [UP], UP, UP, UP, [UP], UP, UP, [UP], UP, UP.... etc, then starting over to try to make it twice, just to show how the frame updates the cheat counter. It is not important how many times you press, only the ones that is within a frame update will be counted for.
    So at the end of the intro sequence, the frame updates are so far from eachother (except at the end, where there are 3 frames very close together including the whilte flash frame), so it is so much easier to just hit UP as many times as possible and by luck hoping to register the 4 needed UPs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--quoteo(post=443186:date=Apr 16 2010, 03:57 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Apr 16 2010, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=443186">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you press UP at the very moment the screen is black (not becoming, but is), you might get it right, but it is actually not registering the first frame. While Sonic is moving so fast in the beginning, you really need to press UP UP really quick, and DOWN DOWN really quick. This is basically where everyone fails. The rest is just to press UP as many tiles and as quickly as possible.…If you managed to get UP UP DOWN DOWN registered, there might not be much frames left to input 4 UPs, and you'll need every new frame upload to registered UP hits. Just press UP like super crazy many times, but as the white flash is on, it is over! The ring sound might appear after a while, but that is just an illusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
     
  16. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=466465:date=Jun 13 2010, 02:45 AM:name=RCC2k10)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCC2k10 @ Jun 13 2010, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=466465">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=454403:date=May 14 2010, 06:28 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ May 14 2010, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=454403">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Best part (idea) of Sonic 3 by far, is the dividable paths for Sonic & Knuckles!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I disagree. The idea was great but the execution, not so much.
    First, playing as Knuckles didn't have the feeling "I'm taking this new route because I can!" Rather, the feeling was "I'm taking this new route because I have no other choice." Some levels had artificial barriers added for Knuckles to make sure you did not have that other choice, like near the midboss at the end of Angel Island 1.

    Second, the difficulty levels were disproportionate for Knuckles. They made the earlier levels (Sonic 3) harder for Knuckles - Marble Garden's boss, Launch Base 2 underwater for the most part and the entire Angel Island 2 level, while the higher levels (Sonic & Knuckles) were made easier - Boss-less Lava Reef 2, pointless Hidden Palace and shortened Sky Sanctuary.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yep, the execution of the idea was kinda horrible. I am not against special barriers to keep a player out though. And some of Knuckles paths were too easy, where the bosses was the hard part. Unbalanced gameplay.
    I think they had run out of time to make Knuckles ending more interesting. Seeing as the last S&K betas focused on the last levels being finished was proof of that.
    I still think it was the most clever thing at the time, and it did put another dimension into S&K, something that is missing in the Advance series.
     
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