General Project Thread & Feedback

Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by steveswede, Apr 29, 2010.

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  1. zemulii

    zemulii

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    I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I'm sure others must also, as we're all still here - months (or years) later :P.
     
  2. test-object

    test-object

    By Torm, no! This is terrible! I... I had no idea Member
    <!--quoteo(post=496990:date=Aug 27 2010, 11:46 AM:name=zemulii)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zemulii @ Aug 27 2010, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=496990">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I'm sure others must also, as we're all still here - months (or years) later :P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm not, that's for sure. I've been insulted enough times by now. The disrespect has gone over what I can take.
    I won't be showing any more progress in public and will only make things if the staff specifically asks me to. I'm also going to post much, much less. I've got better things to do than argue over any piece I or anyone else makes. I'm going back to Newgrounds, and improve my drawing. If you people have decided to grow up and the staff grows closer/has more time again, I might go back to what I did before.

    Remember a while ago when Chimpo said the atmospheres in these threads are disgusting? Count entire fucking #retro. The place that truly shows being a Wiki Sysop makes you a better man than others.

    Sorry for bringing this new-found optimism to a downer, zemulii. But I'm through with it.
     
  3. zemulii

    zemulii

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    :( If you will... The attitude is disgusting all over the internet though (especially on anything videogame related).

    Well it's not so much new-found. I've always felt like that. I might still get fed up with the way things are run every now and then... but in the end, I just want to see the project do well.
     
  4. test-object

    test-object

    By Torm, no! This is terrible! I... I had no idea Member
    <!--quoteo(post=496993:date=Aug 27 2010, 12:28 PM:name=zemulii)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zemulii @ Aug 27 2010, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=496993">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->:( If you will... The attitude is disgusting all over the internet though (especially on anything videogame related).

    Well it's not so much new-found. I've always felt like that. I might still get fed up with the way things are run every now and then... but in the end, I just want to see the project do well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Which is why I'm doing this. If the staff is ready to interfere with the project some more, I am too.
    The time I spend reading arguments is better spent on new images. Don't be sad, I'll be waiting here, but in hermit mode.
     
  5. zemulii

    zemulii

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    <!--quoteo(post=496995:date=Aug 27 2010, 10:35 PM:name=test-object)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (test-object @ Aug 27 2010, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=496995">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why I'm doing this. If the staff is ready to interfere with the project some more, I am too.
    The time I spend reading arguments is better spent on new images. Don't be sad, I'll be waiting here, but in hermit mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Sounds good to me ;). Looking forward to seeing more of your work ... eventually!
     
  6. <!--quoteo(post=496991:date=Aug 27 2010, 05:02 AM:name=test-object)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (test-object @ Aug 27 2010, 05:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=496991">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=496990:date=Aug 27 2010, 11:46 AM:name=zemulii)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zemulii @ Aug 27 2010, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=496990">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I'm sure others must also, as we're all still here - months (or years) later :P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm not, that's for sure. I've been insulted enough times by now. The disrespect has gone over what I can take.
    I won't be showing any more progress in public and will only make things if the staff specifically asks me to. I'm also going to post much, much less. I've got better things to do than argue over any piece I or anyone else makes. I'm going back to Newgrounds, and improve my drawing. If you people have decided to grow up and the staff grows closer/has more time again, I might go back to what I did before.

    Remember a while ago when Chimpo said the atmospheres in these threads are disgusting? Count entire fucking #retro. The place that truly shows being a Wiki Sysop makes you a better man than others.

    Sorry for bringing this new-found optimism to a downer, zemulii. But I'm through with it.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I agree with you Zemulii, I know how drawn out this process is, but I enjoy it nonetheless. Although I will admit, I do sometimes want to move on from a piece because it just gets boring going in circles.

    @TO
    I'm really sad to hear you feel that way. I for one always look forward to your submissions and wish I were as capable as you. I would not take any insults thrown your way too seriously, it is true, internet culture is void of etiquette. Furthermore, this entire site is based on presumed nostalgia, so a lot of the people in here are trying to capture some aspect of their youth. It's only natural therefore that you will have immature and irrational personalities.

    CASE IN POINT:
    "This is why so many people on Retro are content to sit back and laugh at this project and those who post in it so often. "

    :rolleyes:

    THIS I find completely disgusting, especially from someone who ought to know better, it is an attack on everyone in the thread. That being said, I don't give a rats ass what anyone "thinks" about "us", and aside from this project I don't use Sonic Retro for anything. I try not to get offended at what people say in here, because in the end, I don't stand to lose a single thing and my life is probably far more interesting than the majority of the people who behave in such a manner.
     
  7. MaximusDM

    MaximusDM

    Sonic 2HD - Concept Artist Member
    I'm curious what would happen if both me and Test-Object stopped posting anything.
    Because anyone who has posted artwork before has clearly stopped and given up on the process.

    So maybe if we both stopped posting artwork the forums would be a far more peaceful place. Maybe a new trial member will come along and submit some awesome stuff. But maybe they won't.

    But maybe if the forum becomes inactive enough maybe the staff will say something or release something sooner.
     
  8. <!--quoteo(post=497099:date=Aug 27 2010, 12:59 PM:name=MaximusDM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximusDM @ Aug 27 2010, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=497099">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm curious what would happen if both me and Test-Object stopped posting anything.
    Because anyone who has posted artwork before has clearly stopped and given up on the process.

    So maybe if we both stopped posting artwork the forums would be a far more peaceful place. Maybe a new trial member will come along and submit some awesome stuff. But maybe they won't.

    But maybe if the forum becomes inactive enough maybe the staff will say something or release something sooner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    There is no reason to think that what you or TO is doing is stopping trial members from submitting. Unless you think they are intimidated or something, that is the only way that logic would make sense, which I can think of.

    Also I don't see why inactivity would cause the Staff to release anything. It hasn't compelled them in the past, and nothing seems to make them think our effort is worth anything more than a couple silhouettes, even when some of us have stuck here for several years. That is how it's always been, let's just accept that and move on.

    Lastly, while I greatly appreciate all that you and TO do, you also are creating a division amongst your peers, just as the staff does, when you isolate yourself and TO as the only people whose input is meaningful. I, for example, acknowledge that I have not been able to do as much as either of you, but its a bit insulting to imply that the work I and others have done over the years is meaningless.

    ANYWAY, I think if peoples attitudes changed we would all be much happier. Now let's have a big bowl of strawberry ice cream!
     
  9. MaximusDM

    MaximusDM

    Sonic 2HD - Concept Artist Member
    Don't get the wrong idea. I'm not putting myself on a pedestal or anything. And maybe it was wrong of me to mention test-object, he can speak for himself.

    I mentioned in my post trial members having the potential to come in and kick some ass. But the reason I was lured here was because of progress and community. Without that, I see little incentive for trial members to put forth the effort. But that was just my personal experience.

    I am not trying to divide anyone. A lot of the reason I do what I do is to try to inspire that trial member to come out and post some awesome art but it really hasn't happened. Now forgive me if I glanced over a member or submission, that isn't my intention. But I feel like me and test-object are the only ones submitting anything as of recently and at least trying to conform to staff direction.

    I'm not the one that says input is meaningless. Its the staff's call, because literally their input is the only input that matters. So don't put it on me for being a sheep to their rules.

    That is why I am saying maybe if people just stop submitting artwork there would be less to argue about and everyone can just chill out.
     
  10. Jebusman

    Jebusman

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    <!--quoteo(post=497136:date=Aug 27 2010, 04:34 PM:name=subsubstantive)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subsubstantive @ Aug 27 2010, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=497136">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=497099:date=Aug 27 2010, 12:59 PM:name=MaximusDM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximusDM @ Aug 27 2010, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=497099">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm curious what would happen if both me and Test-Object stopped posting anything.
    Because anyone who has posted artwork before has clearly stopped and given up on the process.

    So maybe if we both stopped posting artwork the forums would be a far more peaceful place. Maybe a new trial member will come along and submit some awesome stuff. But maybe they won't.

    But maybe if the forum becomes inactive enough maybe the staff will say something or release something sooner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    There is no reason to think that what you or TO is doing is stopping trial members from submitting. Unless you think they are intimidated or something, that is the only way that logic would make sense, which I can think of.

    Also I don't see why inactivity would cause the Staff to release anything. It hasn't compelled them in the past, and nothing seems to make them think our effort is worth anything more than a couple silhouettes, even when some of us have stuck here for several years. That is how it's always been, let's just accept that and move on.

    Lastly, while I greatly appreciate all that you and TO do, you also are creating a division amongst your peers, just as the staff does, when you isolate yourself and TO as the only people whose input is meaningful. I, for example, acknowledge that I have not been able to do as much as either of you, but its a bit insulting to imply that the work I and others have done over the years is meaningless.

    ANYWAY, I think if peoples attitudes changed we would all be much happier. Now let's have a big bowl of strawberry ice cream!
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think the reason trial members aren't posting anything is because they'd rather not have an entire fucking forum tell them what is wrong with their work. (Like MDM just said)

    Sure there's constructive criticism, but it reaches a point where it's no longer critiquing, it's just bashing. (Read: Sonic 4)

    If this project literally has no timeframe, no real incentive to move any faster than it currently does, then why don't we stop being perfectionists FOR JUST A MOMENT and just create assets, whether or not they're perfect, just so that we HAVE them. Trial members and even old members can just submit what they have, and they're not just turned down instantly because "the lines on the truck are too think" or "the rope doesn't look natural" or "not enough green eyes". It's all taken, put together, and

    BAM.

    A fucking game is born. No it's not perfect. But if you're not in any rush to complete it, why are you spending so much time bickering about it NOW, when you can just take what we have now, put it all together, see how it looks when it's ACTUALLY a game, THEN decide to point out the finer details.

    I'm willing to bet it would be possible to create all of the assets for every zone in under 6 months. No they wouldn't be perfectly shaded, textured or shaped, but for fucks sake at least it would give us and everyone else an idea about how this will all be in the end.


    And then when it's finally complete, we will able to sit back and enjoy what may be the best sonic game ever made. ever.
     
  11. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    Speaking honestly? Yea, I do feel intimidated by MDM and T.O. Things submitted to this project are subject to harsh criticism, because people want nothing but the best. It's difficult to work to that standard if you haven't had that much experience with vector work, and it's hard to expect people that are better than you to take your work and improve it for you.

    On top of that, if anybody submits anything to this project, it is with the hope that it will be accepted. But (speaking for myself of course) if you're incapable of perfecting your work to staff standards, you don't see the point in even trying. Maybe if it were stated explicitly that substandard (but interesting) work would be adopted by more talented artists, we'd see more community input.

    I'm sorry, I have difficulty in making my point sometimes so if its not understood what I'm trying to say, I'll try to elaborate.
     
  12. I apologize to you, MDM. I now understand now what you meant.

    Honestly, what this project needs is a breath of fresh air. If we started promoting the game it would likely attract some new talent. Why not release an alpha of the first level (if possible), or at least some artwork which has been completed. Sonic 4 is attracting a lot of interest in "classic" Sonic, we could use this attention to attract some more talented artists.
     
  13. Hamneggs

    Hamneggs

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    <!--quoteo(post=497171:date=Aug 27 2010, 03:37 PM:name=subsubstantive)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subsubstantive @ Aug 27 2010, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=497171">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I apologize to you, MDM. I now understand now what you meant.

    Honestly, what this project needs is a breath of fresh air. If we started promoting the game it would likely attract some new talent. Why not release an alpha of the first level (if possible), or at least some artwork which has been completed. Sonic 4 is attracting a lot of interest in "classic" Sonic, we could use this attention to attract some more talented artists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah, about that alpha...
     
  14. Conan Kudo

    Conan Kudo

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    <!--quoteo(post=497171:date=Aug 27 2010, 03:37 PM:name=subsubstantive)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subsubstantive @ Aug 27 2010, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=497171">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I apologize to you, MDM. I now understand now what you meant.

    Honestly, what this project needs is a breath of fresh air. If we started promoting the game it would likely attract some new talent. Why not release an alpha of the first level (if possible), or at least some artwork which has been completed. Sonic 4 is attracting a lot of interest in "classic" Sonic, we could use this attention to attract some more talented artists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As far as I know, the first level art is done. The art reference material and submissions were removed from the Inker database months ago, so I'm quite surprised that we've still not gotten the Promised Alpha™....
     
  15. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    The art for the alpha is done. It's mind-boggling to me that you guys think that just because art is done for a zone an alpha release is going to magically pop out. We're working on the background elements so the art has a solid foundation to rest on. Why this is such a difficult concept for some of you is beyond me. There is one hell of a lot more to a working game, even a one zone alpha, than the artwork. I'd like you all to think long and hard about that, because it seems to myself and the staff that many of you have very little idea of what goes on in the game development pipeline. We want to give you a solid date for its release. But we can't right now. There's too much up in the air that we can't nail down for programming, interfaces, menus, integration, etc. etc. in definitive timelines for people that have real lives that come first and a commitment to a quality fan created game after that in their spare time.

    And again, we're not going to drop the expected quality level just so more people can participate and feel good about themselves. Sorry, that's not what this project is about. I'm not going to apologize for that, and I don't expect any staff member to either.

    If MDM and Test-Object decide to kick back and wait for others to contribute anything, it may very well be some time before any extra art is submitted. If that makes the subforum go dead quiet, then that will be solid proof that the two hardest workers in the community were the only ones who had both the talent and the motivation to do something for this project. It's not a jab against those of you who have put forth good ideas, but this is what it is. At least two staff members have been on vacation, and the art they would be showing here is delayed because of that. In the meantime, you can either continue to suggest ideas for the hard mode, attempt to do concepts on your own instead of waiting for one of two people in this forum to, or you can find some other productive method of discussion. The bitching ends here. Jebusman, I'm looking at you.
     
  16. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    <!--quoteo(post=497277:date=Aug 27 2010, 08:13 PM:name=Canned Karma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canned Karma @ Aug 27 2010, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=497277">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If MDM and Test-Object decide to kick back and wait for others to contribute anything, it may very well be some time before any extra art is submitted. If that makes the subforum go dead quiet, then that will be solid proof that the two hardest workers in the community were the only ones who had both the talent and the motivation to do something for this project.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Not bitching here, but if both talent AND motivation are required, that sets the bar a little high. Plenty of people have the motivation, but feel like that can't cut it and don't bother contributing.

    I know that there is a tutorial on beautifying sprites, but perhaps if there were a more detailed one, maybe concentrated on using free software rather than expensive/risky-to-get software, there'd be more input?

    Just a note, I am NOT talking about myself, here. I'm speaking in general.
     
  17. Conan Kudo

    Conan Kudo

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    <!--quoteo(post=497286:date=Aug 27 2010, 07:41 PM:name=AerosolSP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AerosolSP @ Aug 27 2010, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=497286">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know that there is a tutorial on beautifying sprites, but perhaps if there were a more detailed one, maybe concentrated on using free software rather than expensive/risky-to-get software, there'd be more input?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    THIS! So far I've only seen tutorials for rather expensive and bloaty software packages. Perhaps the people experienced in making the art should make some tutorials for Inkscape, GIMP, etc.

    That lowers the bar considerably, and doesn't induce any pressure to pirate crappy bloatware, or god forbid, buy the software.
     
  18. Hamneggs

    Hamneggs

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    <!--quoteo(post=497277:date=Aug 27 2010, 07:13 PM:name=Canned Karma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canned Karma @ Aug 27 2010, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=497277">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The art for the alpha is done. It's mind-boggling to me that you guys think that just because art is done for a zone an alpha release is going to magically pop out. We're working on the background elements so the art has a solid foundation to rest on. Why this is such a difficult concept for some of you is beyond me. There is one hell of a lot more to a working game, even a one zone alpha, than the artwork. I'd like you all to think long and hard about that, because it seems to myself and the staff that many of you have very little idea of what goes on in the game development pipeline. We want to give you a solid date for its release. But we can't right now. There's too much up in the air that we can't nail down for programming, interfaces, menus, integration, etc. etc. in definitive timelines for people that have real lives that come first and a commitment to a quality fan created game after that in their spare time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm sorry. I thought that most of the menu and background engine assets were completed for some reason. However, that brings the relating question (that sadly won't be answered) of what awesomeness have you splashed on the rest of the game, e.g. the menus, and "integration."

    And here is a legitimate General Project Thread & Feedback question. Will this be on fileplanet or whatnot? And something else: I suppose I couldn't contribute to any of the menu art, could I?
     
  19. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    Since a couple of you have some interest in a more in-depth tutorial, I'd like to hear more specifics on exactly what you'd like to see about that. When there's a concise list of what you feel is needed, I'll get together with the appropriate people on staff to make it happen for you. As for details on using other software packages, that's a bit harder to do. Most of the staff artists have been using the same image editing package, and that's why you're seeing so much emphasis on Photoshop and Illustrator. I'd like to think the basics outlined in the tutorials are the same, but I understand some techniques are more program specific than others. Which brings me back to my earlier point -- if there's something you want more information on for a guide, it is your responsibility to ask for it. Don't expect me to be able to read your minds.
     
  20. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    @Canned Karma:

    Now, like I was saying, I wasn't speaking for myself, I was speaking in general. That said, maybe you should make an announcement that the staff is open to suggestions for improving the tutorials, because people that are interested are more likely going to be scared away by the high standards here than they are to see your post, Canned Karma.

    And as for the more experienced staff artists using the same package...well. These staff artists, obviously being very talented and such (no sarcasm intended), should be able to find functions in Inkscape analogous to the ones they use in Photoshop and Illustrator. I was perfectly capable of finding the functions I used in 3DSmax in Blender, and they should be able to do the same. Even if there aren't specific tutorials for specific packages, atleast side notes explaining where to find Photoshop/Illustrator functions elsewhere should be considered.

    I don't even like Illustrator.
     
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