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General Project Thread & Feedback

Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by steveswede, Apr 29, 2010.

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  1. Gambit

    Gambit

    Sonic 2 HD Staff - Level Artist Member
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    Right now there's only been two things done in 3-d for the project, and that's the drill for the first boss, and the drill for the spiker. We're not actually just taking renders and putting them into the game, though. CN is taking each frame as a point of reference, since it would be hard to hand draw a rotating drill from scratch, and then he's just going to add his own shading and whatnot to his, own hand-drawn, drills. We've talked about using pre-rendered objects straight up, but we haven't had to do anything that would look better as a 3-d render rather than standard 2-d art or a render converted to 2-d art, such as the drills.
     
  2. MaximusDM

    MaximusDM

    Sonic 2HD - Concept Artist Member
    I didn't make the buildings in back because they were pretty intimidating. Mainly because the buildings were so square an uninteresting and there was really a lack of detail to really go off. The real skyline with some photoshop is better than what I'll be able to produce honestly. And a variety of different buildings is far more interesting.
    The one thing that is benificial to a 3D model of it compared to a real skyline is the lighting. It has a red-orange glow from the streets that fades to a black when it hits the top. It will look really cool when someone does those buildings in HD.
     
  3. McGuirk

    McGuirk

    The Egg-Man Cometh. Member
    I always thought that the straight, simple buildings were an important part of the environment in Chemical Plant.

    They're huge, red, and very severe looking. The orange reflections in the windows are almost like eyes. They just stare down at you, disgusted by your pathetic attempts; they hate you. There's so many of them, and they're all the same. There is no relief of the horizon. They're a constant reminder that the place that you're in is not a friendly one, and you shouldn't be there.

    Chemical Plant is not a futuristic city. It is not remotely pleasant. It is industrial hell.
     
  4. zemulii

    zemulii

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    Heh yeah, I agree. I do think though, that if you're careful about using the right colours, the right angles, the right lighting... that you could keep that feeling while still adding a bit more visual variety and detail. The mood is definitely important, not just the aesthetics.
     
  5. McGuirk

    McGuirk

    The Egg-Man Cometh. Member
    Zemuli, you are correct. I also overstated that a bit. Chemical Plant is perhaps my favorite zone, and I tend get a bit passionate about ensuring that the feel is properly maintained in S2HD. I did the same thing with the music a while back.

    I retract some, but not all, of my previous zeal. HD it up, folks. Be creative, but also keep that sexy retro industrial look and the horrible emotions conveyed in my previous post.
     
  6. zemulii

    zemulii

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    Continued from Badnik's & Bosses thread:

    That's pathetic. What do they do? Nothing. Lurk. Watch. You'd take these supposed lurker's opinions over those of the people who have been an active part of the community why? Because they sympathise with your own views on the matter? Not surprising seeing as they don't actually have to deal with it, so what experience do they have to base their opinions on?

    We don't just complain for the sake of it you know. We don't do it for fun. We do so because we want the project to be the best it can be. And for that to happen, the staff and the community have to get along and be accepting of each other's opinions.

    In fact, I really hate having to complain. Especially because I really do respect what the staff do, and have to put up with (even if they bring a lot of it upon themselves).

    I'm not saying the community is totally right 100% of the time. There are definitely things we need to improve on. Such as:

    - Being more accepting and open to different concepts. The attitude towards concept art can be horrendous at times, and I can understand why people would be put off by this (I am). It's hampering creativity.

    - Maybe we do complain a lot... Most of it, I feel is justified. But sometimes I, and others do go a little overboard... and I apologize for those times.

    - I know I for one could be doing more work... I have to be in the mood for it though.

    etc.

    As for "damned little work done". I don't entirely agree. There has been quite a bit of work done. It's come in slowly, and sporadically... it's just that 99% of it is "concept" work, and hasn't gone much beyond that. All we can then do is discuss it, and seeing as we can't come to an official conclusion ourselves... well... you know the rest.

    Also, give our discussions a little credit. They're not always as roundabout and useless as you make them out to be. Just because there's little in the way of visual progress, doesn't mean that all our ideas and discussions count for nothing. It all factors into what eventually becomes the finished product (it's just making that next step towards it that isn't happening).

    The thing is, when most people hold the same "opinion", it's a little more than just an opinion.

    Either start listening to your community, or accept that things are going to be very slow and painful. And that it will be your own fault.

    On a more positive note, here's an example of what I feel is the right attitude from the staff (although semi-unrelated) ;):

     
  7. In no way is an Industrial Hell diametrically opposed to a futuristic city, who are we to presuppose what the economic system is.

    The Staff mentioned that a lot of the argumentation around here is nonesense, I often agree. I too often sit back and roll my eyes, this is generally when the staff has made a decision and people refuse to stop arguing about it, or when a similar issue to the one brought up is constantly being pressed at.

    I have decided this time I am going to speak, because regardless of wether the "staff", or other "lurkers" see it, those of us who come here regularly, partake in discussion, and provide tangible input know exactly what and who the problem is. We feel completely devalued. We are simply written off as a bunch of whiny, useless Sonic Fags. Well I'm a fag and I like Sonic, so I'm just gonna shut my fucking mouth already. I'm not continuing this conversation. I see this relationship with the staff will never change.

    This is what I'm gonna do, just like EVERYONE ELSE who tries to contribute to this project without a staff engraved halo. I'm going to just stop caring about the rumination. When an arguement is going in circles and nothing is getting furthered as a result of little staff input, I'll just shut up. The board will go a week without a single damn thing being said, and then when I get curious I'll stop by and give my 2 cents. I respect the staff for all that they do, but not for what they don't!
     
  8. jman2050

    jman2050

    Teh Sonik Haker Tech Member
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    This project's development process will surely be a fascinating case study for future aspiring fan game developers.
     
  9. McGuirk

    McGuirk

    The Egg-Man Cometh. Member
    Subsubstantive,

    I'm not sure if that whole thing was directed at me, but if it was, take it easy. I was just sharing my personal impression of Chemical Plant's setting, and how it makes me feel. No one's arguing. People were discussing buildings and ideas about them, and I provided my input. This is the first thing I've said regarding this issue, and I'm definitely not causing any trouble or slowing things down.

    Again, if I misinterpreted your post, please disregard this part of mine.

    EDIT: Upon further reading, I think I very misinterpreted your post. Sorry.


    In regards your first sentence, I suppose that's true. However, I still think simple and uniform was the intended design. Sonic Team had no trouble putting curved, round, and complex structures and objects in the backgrounds of other levels, yes these buildings were all made in a simple rectangular fashion.
     
  10. Namo

    Namo

    take a screenshot of your heart Member
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    I'll admit, I have little to contribute besides my thoughts and suggestions. I'm no good with making vector art, or remastering music, etc. It would also be selfish and downright stupid to say "Well, I'm one of the players of the game, so if you want me to play it, it has too look and sound like this and that and those and these, here, here aaaand here."

    But I would also like to think that my suggestions aren't total crap as well. I've suggested a few things here and there, like the vine-slider-thing in Hill Top Zone. I had a few ideas to contribute before I was approved, which I've since forgotten, but no one else seems to have brought them up which is a little sad for me.

    On track here though, I wouldn't say "Close to nothing" has been done on this project, because its not true. I'll admit, though, more could have been done by now, and by that I don't mean "Oh, they should at least be half done by now", because that is just not realistic. This is a community project and opinions will clash, but I feel that they should clash about more important things, and I'm not saying that just to be a prick or be harsh, and I know its not my place to even say that. But come on. You guys spent how long arguing about a tree? Something most players aren't going to even focus on, and run past? Something that 3 or 4 of were submitted that looked great, fantastic even? That makes me sound like the biggest prick in the world, but there's just no sugar coating that.

    I'll probably pop in to offer a suggestion once in awhile. But for the most part, everything I see here is great.
     
  11. I apologies if my remark sounded angry or anything like that, my intent was just to say that the buildings can both reflect harsh industrialism and look futuristic, because one refers to an economic system with a value judgment, and the other is simply a contemporary expectation of architecture at a future time. The assumption, I thought you had made, was that the future could not be an industrial hell. Of course, you don't have to be in the future to choose an aesthetic which we regard as looking like how the future may be anyway. All is well :)


    This misses the point. No one wants to spend this much time arguing about the tree or any other piece. We do so, or at least I do, because some of us feel that because no one of REAL importance is providing input we must keep going until the nail is hit on the head. I too got so sick of it, very sick which is evident in my previous statements, that's why I began throwing out additional concepts in the hopes it may further progress, but it didn't seem to amount to much. Now, as far as saying any particular piece is not significant because users will just run by it, this is not an attitude I care to adopt.
     
  12. Namo

    Namo

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    It's not one I wanted to adopt either, but come on, after awhile you sorta think, "It's a tree. Should we care this much?" I think people will pay much more attention to badniks than trees, don't you think? I mean, place that tree in the same area as a Rexon. What do you think will be the end result?

    Pretty sure people will say "The Lava glow on that Rexon is spectacular! I can't take my eyes off it!" instead of "Oh my God, the bark on that tree is so terrible! Jesus, what were they thinking?"
     
  13. Gambit

    Gambit

    Sonic 2 HD Staff - Level Artist Member
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    They'll say both if one looks great and the other looks like shit.
     
  14. Namo

    Namo

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    But its not like its anything game-breaking. They're not gonna say "Oh that tree sucks, I'm quitting" or something. Even then, none of the trees I've seen look like shit, but that could be me. And it's not even the part of me saying "Oh just choose a damn tree already".

    But yeah, I guess I do see where this line of thought is going. I just don't want to see all this wasted effort when there's still other objects in HTZ to be done. I don't see why they waited until one of the trees was approved before moving on to another object. It would've saved time, right?
     
  15. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
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    You haven't been here long, have you?
     
  16. Namo

    Namo

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    Let me fix my statement.

    "It's not like that's anything game breaking. Anyone with sense won't say 'Oh that tree sucks, I'm quitting.'"
     
  17. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

    S2HD Project Manager Member
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    Sonic 2 HD, various 3D work
    ...Do you all realize that you're arguing about arguing? This is why so many people on Retro are content to sit back and laugh at this project and those who post in it so often. It's beyond ridiculous. And you wonder why the staff goes long periods without responding to things; we don't feel like dealing with it. This you can fault us for, so from now on I'll be keeping even closer track of every thread in the subforum to yank them back on track when things are in danger of spiraling off into the oblivion of pointless debate. And for this, I expect the current conversations of those threads to get back to what they're supposed to be for.

    If you guys want to air frustrations about specific and relevant things, send me a PM with an intelligent explanation behind them and I'll respond to you personally. Not on here where it's going to continue to cause a mess.
     
  18. zemulii

    zemulii

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    Your first statement I think I'd best ignore...

    Okay, as long as you can get it back on track by giving us some good clear direction. By letting us know what to forget about, and what to focus on, then I'll be very happy.

    Very well, I'll try to just PM you in the future if I have a problem.

    Anyway, thanks for listening (I hate sounding like a whiner, even when I feel I have to)!

    Edit: I've got to admit you guys have been more active lately, which is great.
     
  19. zemulii

    zemulii

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    I'm not having a go at anyone here, or the project itself - I'm just curious. What does everyone want to get out of this project? A finished product is obviously so far off that it can hardly even be thought about right now. But I suppose that must be the ultimate goal, whether it's realistic or not. But in the short term... we all work away at this... why?

    I for one just enjoy the process. The "finished" product (alpha or otherwise) is not all that important to me. I just love seeing what everyone comes up with, putting forward my own suggestions/concepts. Seeing how it all turns out. The post in the other thread just got me thinking... While it doesn't particularly bother me that the tree still isn't finalized, it obviously bothers some people. I just sort of want to know why... Do they just want the alpha out? Are we making this for the love of the game, or just because we want to play the game...?

    As far as I'm concerned, as long as the tree ends up looking as good as it can, it's worth all the effort. What has time actually got to do with it?
     
  20. McGuirk

    McGuirk

    The Egg-Man Cometh. Member
    Seconded.

    This is a fan project, we have no deadlines, no incentive to finish. We're doing it because we love Sonic 2 and want to see it reworked to have the same visual impact that it did when the original was released.

    Me personally, I don't care when it's done. Sonic 2: HD can be another fan game, or it can be something really special. The difference is the effort and passion funneled into its creation.

    I haven't been the best contributor, I'm not too great at art or music. But, I do read these forums almost every day, and I provide my honest opinion when I feel it's warranted.
     
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