General Project Thread & Feedback

Tweaker, I thought he was talking about how everybody was trying to be elitist and impose their authority, rather than just letting the ones that have that job to do it =/

 

It's important for everyone to remember that the pause screen idea is completely separate from every other suggestion made on this project. We have to look at each idea individually, not just file them into "wasn't in the original" and "was in the original" and throw everything in the former category out. Ideas such as a title screen that changes depending on the time of the day I can't get behind. It has no functional purpose that would improve Sonic 2 HD. That was thrown out for that reason. There's no purpose behind it.

However, the pause menu does have a purpose. It makes the game seem more professional, more modern, and easier for users to use. We're not making a tech demo or an emulator. We're trying to make a professional level game here. And what professional game in the last 8 years hasn't had a pause menu? Hasn't had an easy way (without putting down the controller) to not only quit the game, but go back to the main menu or change options?

That's the reason this is even being considered. While it's not a feature in the original game, it is a feature that makes sense. It makes sense for the platform we're designing this for, for the users we're making this for, and for the timeframe that it's being made in.

I haven't heard an argument against it yet. All I've seen are other ways to do the same thing that are more difficult for the average user. Those aren't arguments against the idea, they're alternatives.

So please, would someone give me a good argument against the pause menu? A reason besides "it wasn't in the original"?

Really the elitist attitude that's been bothering me comes from people who rush in here, post originalpixelfag, and then rush out. People who don't contribute anything, either criticism or else wise. And for those who do contribute but still have an overall elitist attitude toward the project, well, I feel that attitude is causing some good ideas to be ignored. Good ideas by those people.

As far as the people who are banned, while I'm sure they deserve it, it has made the overall workings of this project more difficult. While Sonica may be 12, immature, and annoying, he's also rather talented. I'm just glad that him being banned hasn't stopped him from working on this project. It could have very easily gone the other way with him.

It's not your admin privileges that I was referring to. It's the elitist attitude. "I know better than you" is what I get with most of your posts. And it's discouraging and annoying. It makes me want to disagree with the ideas of yours that I agree with. You can see how that's a problem.

 

From what I gather, Sonica was banned for his poor posting habits, not once but twice. Posting with "Ok." is just stupid. I don't recall the other member.

It's happened like only three or four times, which is hardly every time. In fact, Master Emerald secapes this fate by and large because of his willingness to try new things (Even if he fails) and deconstruct the original materials, as seen in his re-look at the EHZ/HTZ perceived block shape. So, we're supposed to say kind things about sup-par work? I don't think so.

And how frustrating is it on the other end, when we see a member contribute something thoroughly excellent just to have it picked apart line-by-line for every shape not present in the original, just to update with an inferior "improved" version that loses the soul the original had? There is an annoying and frustrating double-standard precedent here which seems to adhere to the "as the original" rule on whim only. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason, either.

Tweaker was an avid supporter of this project to begin with, we all were. However, bad management, a failure to adopt a top-down design philosophy and an eagerness to pander to absolutely anyone willing to open inkscape have replaced anything resembling good design. Tweaker hasn't just attacked the project, he has offered legitimate construction most steps of the way, which has been ignored. He is well within his rights and authority to withdraw his work.

So a Community Project can't handle 'background noise' from Sonic Retro community as a whole? Those double standards I mentioned seem to be the very backbone of this endeavour.

To reiterate: Pause menu is not problem. The lack of integrity it represents is.

 

We had a talk with Sonica about that. He is very enthusiastic about the project, although it is true he is very young, so allow me to apologize on his behalf. As with all youngsters, some patience and understanding will be required.

It's not that Tweaker. It's the way in which you sometimes express your opinions. For example, sometimes your comments are sarcastic and provocative. Then other times, you express yourself eloquently and politely. This is preferred, because it then allows the person whom you are addressing to take more heed of your thoughts.

 

I am no professional drawer, nor I ever claimed to be. But I can tell you we are making S2HD real.
While stickying to the original frames as we can, for the overly mentioned reasons.

The best solution for that particular Eggman animation mixed some original frames from Sonic 1 and many reworking cycles to be a good one.

I've received many "childish insults" and critics from the "Great Pro Artists", but I prefer work over word.
You want to really help us out? Post images like the "REAL" S2HD helpers have done since now.

Many people stopped contributing because it was too "difficult" to "complete" something they were not motivated enough to do, giving out excuses as the reason of their stopped work.


If someone disagrees with the leadership or the coordination of the project, without providing any useful suggestions, but insulting and being extremely bad with social attitude, thus trashing people's hard efforts:

1)have a look to the Database and honestly say if you could have managed to do this in less than one year, while having job and real life.

2)PLEASE DO NOT POST.


Said this, let's please move on with original content of the topic.

 

1) There is very little point in just having "PAUSE" across the screen. You might as well keep to the original

2) I think a pause menu would be useful and don't see any harm in it, although I understand what Tweaker is saying and he does raise a valid point in some respects.

3) If there is a pause menu then keep it as simple as possible.

4) Why not have a settings file with an option for classic or new pause. Default could be classic. Problem solved?

5) I still reckon the programming side of things should be more open and a higher priority. I've been told that work is happening on it but I've seen no updates or comments. Has the discussion on programming been moved to a private topic?

6) Why not create a custom wiki for this project and implement a wish list. Each 'wish' could then be clicked and allow feasibility and implementation methods to be discussed and debated rather than having something like a pause menu completely take a topic on art off-topic. It would also be a good idea since it would allow a central location to view all suggestions in the future when the time comes rather than having to dig deep through multiple topics to discover suggestions made yonks ago. It would also allow ideas to be tagged like "in progress", "future progress" and "dismissed"

 

Are we? I'm rather sure we're just stating an opinion, as I mentioned above.

Are opinions really being misconstrued as demands now? That's a worrying thought. I never said "do this or die" or anything like that—all I ever did was defend my viewpoints. :\

As for the pause menu, aside from the prospect that it's rather inconsistent as mentioned above, it's... not necessary. You're changing things that don't need to be changed, since they just worked fine in the original game. Ideally speaking, Sonic 2 HD should play and act exactly like the original game, down to every detail. If it didn't, then it provides an experience different from the original game which will not always be interpreted as a positive addition. The idea here is that Sonic 2 HD should please anyone who played and enjoyed the original game—adding extra features into the mix such as a pause menu shaft the possibility of that happening.

Yes, many "professional" games may have a pause menu these days, but this isn't a modern game. It's a game made over 16 years ago! We're just improving the art and music to accommodate for new hardware capability. A pause menu would have been very technically possible to include in the original game—but they didn't. Don't you think there was a reason for that?

We don't know what the original devs were thinking when they did certain things. But we should at least trust them that they did it for a good reason—changing things arbitrarily like that may impose some sort of design prospect that the original game devs frowned upon. We don't know, so we shouldn't break that formula. That's my view.

 

You did Tweaker - you held us to ransom by threatening to retract your work, remember? I understand though that this has been a lively discussion, perhaps we have got carried away with ourselves - so we can just let it rest now.

 

I didn't threaten—I did. =P Deleted it right off the FTP server.

Maybe we should move this discussion to the general project thread? I think it's something that needs to be addressed.

 

That may be the miscommunication that's causing most of this. Whenever opinions and views are expressed along side insults and sarcasm the views (no matter how valid) tend to get overshodowed by the negative message.

From your second post about the pause menu you started by insulting the idea, the project, the people producing for the project, and the project leader. What exactly is everyone going to focus on then, the pause menu, or your overall dislike for the project?

 

Yes. I have recognized this flaw in the Sonic community ever since I first came here. That is why from the beginning of this project I have emphasized a positive, collaborative and constructive ethos.

 

I think this stemmed to an overall dislike for the project, with the Pause Menu being the straw that broke the camel's back, if you will. So yeah, the discussion would be mainly about the project in general—hence the split into the General Project thread. =P

For example, I wouldn't retract my work over a pause menu. That'd be stupid. It goes a lot deeper than that.

 

The problem is all due to the phrase "original pixel fag"
"Thou shall uphold every detail from the original unto the new"

But this is a misconception - the rule was made to simplify the task of working with a multitude of styles and artists

Imagine working two weeks and being told "that looks great", but then it's all put together - and then to be told "that doesn't fit - please go back and retry it?" A lot of work would be wasted

So the rule was laid to simplify the style selection
You can't go wrong by sticking to the original

But now we have humans citing the "almighty" rule in regards to everything
The rule is just a filter - nothing more

 

You started all this, and your tone has been reinforced by the usual 2-3 individuals making echo of this bad attitude, usually shown over your diverging opinions with us.

If you don't want to help us, so be it.
But at least, please do not stress us out, we need a relaxed place to maximize our work and let all new contributors to be encouraged.

If you really want to help us, give suggestions in the proper way.


Topic split.

 

Well, I've tried to get through to people that bickering constantly isn't helping, and nothing's changed.

Maybe Jay was right; this project really is a fucking joke...

 

Except for the ironic title, do not post anything like the following or it will find his space here.

MOD MODE EDIT: Overruled. The last thing that's gonna go down here is moving people's suggestions into a trash thread. That's counterproductive in every imaginable way. What's gonna need to happen is not a sweeping under the rug, but a tactical dismissal of not working ideas, and a clear reason why. Vincent, if you've got problems with this, then you take it up with me.

Naturally, people are gonna have different ideas, and many will be quite outlandish. If you can't deal with it in a mature and intelligent manner, that's an indicator of some serious issues, and stuff is gonna go down.

Now then, carry on.
Aquaslash

 

I've thought of an idea. With us having "Hidden Palace Zone" included, why not have unlockable Genocide City and Wood Zones? I know it my be defeating the object of S2HD, but it seems like a good idea.

Your thoughts...

 

Well my post was moved along with the others to the "Thread of evil" so I thought I'd repost my comment here for debate.

Why not create a custom wiki for this project and implement a wish list. Each 'wish' could then be clicked and allow feasibility and implementation methods to be discussed and debated rather than having something like a pause menu completely take a topic on art off-topic. It would also be a good idea since it would allow a central location to view all suggestions in the future when the time comes rather than having to dig deep through multiple topics to discover suggestions made yonks ago. It would also allow ideas to be tagged like "in progress", "future progress" and "dismissed"

 

Well, considering what we know of GCZ, it'd basically be a reskin of Metropolis 3.

(http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=10812)

 

Has there been any thought given to the way that the special zones are going to be done yet? Given the dedicated 3D look the original game had, I have to wonder if this is an avenue that's worth persuing given the talent available. While I'm sure someone could come up with a way to recreate it via vector art, I for one certainly wouldn't mind seeing a few mock-ups if someone is up to the task. I'd be one of the first to volunteer if I wasn't buried in coursework at the moment.