General Project Thread & Feedback

Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by Vangar, Mar 8, 2008.

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  1. kazade

    kazade

    Member Member
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    A 2D Physics Engine
    <!--quoteo(post=427457:date=Mar 18 2010, 04:37 AM:name=saxman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saxman @ Mar 18 2010, 04:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427457"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=427198:date=Mar 17 2010, 04:28 PM:name=kazade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kazade @ Mar 17 2010, 04:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427198"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=427170:date=Mar 17 2010, 07:20 PM:name=Hamneggs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hamneggs @ Mar 17 2010, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427170"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=427155:date=Mar 17 2010, 12:34 PM:name=kazade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kazade @ Mar 17 2010, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427155"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, I'll introduce myself. I'm a software developer, I've been hanging around on these forums for a long time now admiring the artwork and the enthusiasm of the community and waiting to hear about what is going on with the engine, because being a programmer, I'd be curious to see the code.

    Kazade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It really sounds like if you got your hands on the code, you would work wonders with it. For your information, it has been said—somewhere, at least—that the current engine is a cleaned up, ported version of the S3&K engine. Perhaps you could use your 20 trial member posts sparingly and PM the Core Team, namely LoSt. and get your fingerprints on this project. If you could work your way in, maybe you could make the changes the rest of us are fighting for.
    That would almost make you our Ben Franklin if I'm not mistaken.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Unfortunately I don't have time to commit myself to the project at the moment. If the staff did open up everything then of course I'd contribute patches, fix bugs etc. when I could. That said, even if I did have time, absorbing another member into the S2HD staff clique isn't going to solve the issue, I find it unlikely that a new member would have much of a say.

    LoSt, if you are reading, I'd love to know your reasons for keeping the source closed, I fail to see how it brings you any benefit. Opening the source would give you testers and more developers and would result in cleaner, better, more stable code and faster development. It would also allow for a whole array of new projects based on the code, even different games with different characters (look at OpenArena, AlienArena, Tremulous etc. all based on Quake 3 which was open sourced). You open it, you open up a load of possibilities, you keep it closed and it will never be as good as it could have been.

    So to sum it up, if it was open I (and likely many others) would contribute, as it's closed I won't. Until that changes I'll resume my silent watching. :)

    P.S. How do I stop the 20 post limit?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That is a complete snub in my opinion. I'm sure you didn't want to come off that way, so I'm telling you it very much did. L0st has a right to his code. It should not be questioned. That's like asking me why I don't open my house up to everyone so they can see everything. The way I see it, it's a privacy issue. It's his. This is not a community project in the traditional sense, I think that should be rather obvious at this point. And why is that a bad thing? It's lead by a team that would like some others to contribute or give suggestions and such. That doesn't mean they have to accept everything or let you see everything they're doing. It's not fair to expect that of them.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    LOst does have a right to his code, but this is supposedly a community project, how can someone contribute to the engine if they can't see the code? What I'm saying is that LOst must have a reason to not take advantage of all the benefits opening the code would bring. So, I'll ask again, LOst would you mind sharing your reasons why you believe keeping the code closed will be more beneficial than opening it? Is it a general fear that you'll lose control of the code?

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And this doesn't have to do with the issues of "how" people can contribute, or the lack of communication, or whatever. If you want to address that, that's fine. But I think you're expecting too much, and it would annoy me greatly if someone told me "unless you make everything you're doing open to the public, I'm not helping you." I'd just laugh at the person and go on. It's fine to disagree with things, but being perceived as "needy" or "demanding" makes everything you posted irrelevent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Show me how to contribute code and I'll help like I said. Joining in with the staff and not paying attention the community is not an option for me, I'm sure there are other programmers hovering around that would contribute if it was easy to. About my post being irrelevant, well, I've posted my advice, you guys can take it or disregard it, that's your prerogative. But I'd like to think what I said had some effect on the announcement Canned Karma just posted.

    As it is I don't have time to join as a full time member. I have a bunch of other responsibilities that I've been letting slip recently (like running <a href="http://nehe.gamedev.net/" target="_blank">http://nehe.gamedev.net/</a> and reviewing articles for <a href="http://www.gamedev.net/" target="_blank">http://www.gamedev.net/</a> and helping to fix bugs in the upcoming Ubuntu 10.04 release, and fixing the DirectDraw surface ref-counting in Wine and I have my own personal projects on top of that - just in case you wanted evidence for my "snub").

    Also, to whomever it was that said "this is a professional project now and should be closed" - erm, yeah sure, because open projects are never professional (e.g. Apache, Linux, Wine etc. etc.). sigh.

    @Canned Karma - Thanks for the announcement, definitely looks like a step in the right direction to me. Nice one! (Although my reservations about the closed source engine still stand) I'll continue to hover around the forums, I might even attempt some artwork when time permits (I can basically find my way around Inkscape).
     
  2. MaximusDM

    MaximusDM

    Sonic 2HD - Concept Artist Member
    Sounds good! Once you clean up/organize both the forums and overhaul the database, hit us with specific progress as far as what is DONE(give or take possible minor adjustments at anytime), what is virtually considered DONE (currently being worked on by staff), and what NEEDS to be done (give specifics as to what we should be working on), artwork that has been worked on but deemed UNFINISHED (concept art, submitted artwork with conflicting art style, unapproved art, unfinished art, denied art) in order to help artists toward the creation of a piece of art seeking approval.

    Provided links to work files when available and label and link the artist's profile who submitted and/or posted them.
    Many times posted artwork is hosted on hosting sites, if possible upload it to the overhauled database to avoid broken links and lost artwork postings.

    I don't know if the art guidelines on the tutorial page or where is up to date. But I'd guess it probably isn't because its been ever changing since the start of 'vector art only'.
    Only you guys know how the engine works. So you need to tell people the specifics of how the engine handles the artwork, resolution, amount of colors, tiling, number of animation frames, transparencies, file type, file size, ect. if they are to submit artwork aimed at approval.

    With Hill Top Zone sharing so much of Emerald Hill Zone and with Emerald Hill Zone being currently for your eyes only, we need to know what is going to transfer over to Hill Top Zone (ie the art is done) and be much more specific in what NEEDS to be done. Refer to the first paragraph. If there has been concept art, unfinished art, unapproved art, denied art, lay it all out for artists to view and take it from there.

    Now, once people start submitting/posting their artwork in the new topic pages you create: KEEP THEM UP TO DATE. ALWAYS. SO THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. Obviously filtering out artwork that doesn't attain a certain standard if there are multiple takes on certain pieces of artwork to the point where the first post is becoming unorganized (I don't think it will happen, but just a precaution).

    If you don't have Sonic 2 HD staff or FORUM staff doing this cleaning we will be in the same boat we are now. If you don't have enough people or willing people, promote some forum members and assign them a topic to keep tidy and updated which is a relatively simple task as long as you keep up with it. That is one way of letting people contribute, especially those who want to contribute and aren't artists.
     
  3. kazade

    kazade

    Member Member
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    A 2D Physics Engine
    Just one other thing. It might be a good idea to store the currently accepted artwork in an open revision control system (like SVN) for a few reasons:

    1. Everyone can see what is going on at a certain point in time
    2. You can replace artwork with better versions, but always will be able to revert back to a previous version
    3. Everyone can get local copies of the artwork to make their own improvements to any artwork for consideration
     
  4. Vincent

    Vincent

    Sonic 2HD - Project Leader & Chara Member
    1,253
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    Sonic 2 HD
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just one other thing. It might be a good idea to store the currently accepted artwork in an open revision control system (like SVN) for a few reasons:

    1. Everyone can see what is going on at a certain point in time
    2. You can replace artwork with better versions, but always will be able to revert back to a previous version
    3. Everyone can get local copies of the artwork to make their own improvements to any artwork for consideration<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The Database already has all these functions, however you must be registered to use them.
    For an instance you can use it to update your own art revisions, so if there will be 3 rexons and 4 trees proceeding in approved quality they'll be categorized under rexon and tree entries.

    Last thing, is about the almighty LOst's engine open source request:
    <u><b>No.</b></u>

    Insisting on the subject makes me read clearly that those keeping asking, are more interested on having the source then actually being interested on S2HD programming status, which currently does not need any help.
    You want to help us out as a programmer?
    Then go for a 3D Special Stage engine, especially if you have the professional skills to pull it off.

    Be ready for the overhaul guys. ;)
     
  5. zemulii

    zemulii

    Member Member
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    Thanks for the update :). Alright, I'm satisfied (can't have <I>everything</I> our way, but it's a very nice compromise)! Can't wait to see how everything turns out. Thanks for listening and considering!
     
  6. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    <!--quoteo(post=427535:date=Mar 18 2010, 06:10 AM:name=kazade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kazade @ Mar 18 2010, 06:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427535"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just one other thing. It might be a good idea to store the currently accepted artwork in an open revision control system (like SVN) for a few reasons:

    1. Everyone can see what is going on at a certain point in time
    2. You can replace artwork with better versions, but always will be able to revert back to a previous version
    3. Everyone can get local copies of the artwork to make their own improvements to any artwork for consideration<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's how things worked in the beginning, with the Inker database... until things went secret and it stopped being updated accordingly. I agree that it's a very important part of the community project as such, and keeping it up to date would prevent unnecesary revisions or even duplicate work.
     
  7. kazade

    kazade

    Member Member
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    A 2D Physics Engine
    <!--quoteo(post=427540:date=Mar 18 2010, 10:44 AM:name=Vincent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vincent @ Mar 18 2010, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427540"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last thing, is about the almighty LOst's engine open source request:
    <u><b>No.</b></u>

    Insisting on the subject makes me read clearly that those keeping asking, are more interested on having the source then actually being interested on S2HD programming status, which currently does not need any help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Heh, you have a low opinion of people. :)

    So I assume the engine is tested on all graphics cards and different driver versions? I also assume that it's cross platform, and bug free and fully optimized? These are things that more developers can help with. If LOst doesn't want to open the source then fine, but it's exactly equivalent of closing the artwork submissions - it's not in the spirit of a community project. All I have asked is the reasoning for keeping it closed, he doesn't have to respond, of course he doesn't, but I'd be curious to know how keeping it closed is more beneficial for the project than opening it.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You want to help us out as a programmer?
    Then go for a 3D Special Stage engine, especially if you have the professional skills to pull it off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As I've repeatedly said, I don't have time to do anything major, but if the code was open and I discovered a bug, or I could see an improvement or optimization in the code then I would submit a patch. Just like millions of programmers do to other open source projects. Anyway, I'd assume that any 3D special stage engine would integrate into the existing code - which I can't see :p

    Perhaps I'm just spoiled by the freedom and efficiency you get when working with some really good open source teams, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt if you like.
     
  8. Shadic

    Shadic

    Member Member
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    Olympia, WA
    Home improvement eternal
    <!--quoteo(post=427540:date=Mar 18 2010, 03:44 AM:name=Vincent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vincent @ Mar 18 2010, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427540"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last thing, is about the almighty LOst's engine open source request:
    <u><b>No.</b></u>

    Insisting on the subject makes me read clearly that those keeping asking, are more interested on having the source then actually being interested on S2HD programming status, which currently does not need any help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah, that reflects <I>great</I> to the community. :specialed:
     
  9. Kirinja

    Kirinja

    ATATATATA! Member
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    <!--quoteo(post=427198:date=Mar 17 2010, 09:28 PM:name=kazade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kazade @ Mar 17 2010, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427198"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would also allow for a whole array of new projects based on the code, even different games with different characters (look at OpenArena, AlienArena, Tremulous etc. all based on Quake 3 which was open sourced).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is why the source code should remain closed imo. The last thing S2HD needs now is a million spinoff games based on the same engine. You do have some valid arguments for opening the source code to the public but in my opinion I think it should just remain closed.
     
  10. Jayextee

    Jayextee

    Comic Mischief Member
    3,218
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    Kathmandu, Nepal
    I DONE MAKED GAMES.
    <!--quoteo(post=427540:date=Mar 18 2010, 03:44 AM:name=Vincent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vincent @ Mar 18 2010, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427540"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last thing, is about the almighty LOst's engine open source request:
    <u><b>No.</b></u>

    Insisting on the subject makes me read clearly that those keeping asking, are more interested on having the source then actually being interested on S2HD programming status, which currently does not need any help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This reeks of both paranoia and arrogance. Surely, like the art, a shared workload with a bunch of talented people in this field would yield better results. After all, unlike art which can be completely subjective, programming is a technical skill and <I>can be done correctly</I>. Is LOst so proud/ashamed of his code that he doesn't want others to taint/improve it? Is it using some super-duper new technology he doesn't want to reveal until he knows the world is finally safe from the impending doom in 2012? Maybe all his comments are in dactylic hexameter and his little secret is a thing he wants to keep to himself?

    I honestly can't think of a <I>good</I> reason to keep the codebase closed, personally. :3
     
  11. Vincent

    Vincent

    Sonic 2HD - Project Leader & Chara Member
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    Sonic 2 HD
    LOst's engine is the super-duper thing and it's qualified enough to make S2HD have the best engine ever.
    Things won't change to requests. Case closed, guys move along.
     
  12. roxahris

    roxahris

    Everyone's a hypocrite. Take my word for it. Member
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    Doing anything at all
    Geez, to think his other post was said to reek of arrogance...

    That kind of attitude isn't really the sort that inspires trust in this being more of a community project, you know.
     
  13. Afti

    Afti

    ORIGINAL MACHINE Member
    3,521
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    <!--quoteo(post=427560:date=Mar 18 2010, 07:49 AM:name=Vincent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vincent @ Mar 18 2010, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427560"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOst's engine is the super-duper thing and it's qualified enough to make S2HD have the best engine ever.
    Things won't change to requests. Case closed, guys move along.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    There is no such thing as perfect debugging.

    Now, preventing anyone who ISN'T LOst from working on your "super-duper" engine? You'll have a buggy, unoptimized piece of shit no matter how skilled he is because it will have been tested on only a handful of hardware configurations. Let alone the simple issue of time investment- a handful of staff CANNOT put in enough man-hours to debug this, given that they have jobs or school.

    Your arrogance is appalling. Use some sort of restrictive license if you're afraid of people using the code, but no code is ever perfect and you're a damn fool if you think your engine is.
     
  14. tokumaru

    tokumaru

    Member Member
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    Rio de Janeiro
    Platformer for the NES
    You should stop being so pretentious about people stealing your work. There will always be talentless people stealing other people's work, this is the fucking internet. You are not a company making this for money, you are fans making this for fun and for the community, so who gives a fuck if a stupid kid makes a crappy "Sonic 5 HD" using your engine, as long as S2HD is infinitely more polished? If the community is able to quality control the art and music, it's only logical that they are entitled to do the same with the code. But for some damn reason you are being incredibly uptight about this, without even bothering giving us a reason better than "LOst doesn't want to share".

    Forget it... I'm out of here. This kind of arrogance makes me lose the last bit of interest I had in helping. I'll be back in 15 years when this thing is ready.
     
  15. Elratauru

    Elratauru

    Oooh Shiny stuff! don't touch it >:( Member
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    Montevideo, Uruguay
    Web Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=427593:date=Mar 18 2010, 11:40 AM:name=tokumaru)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tokumaru @ Mar 18 2010, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427593"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should stop being so pretentious about people stealing your work. There will always be talentless people stealing other people's work, this is the fucking internet. You are not a company making this for money, you are fans making this for fun and for the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This = Truth.
     
  16. nineko

    nineko

    I am the Holy Cat Tech Member
    I am sorry but as a programmer I have to join everyone's concern about the engine. Even if LOst is a fellow Tech Member, and we used to work together on some things (the research about the Sonic & Knuckles Collection MIDI files), this still doesn't make it right for him to act like this. I can see how opening the engine to everyone and their moms would be a bad idea because we would end up with a myriad of stupid fangames in HD. On the other hand, a small development team of trusted individuals (Afti, GerbilSoft, Andlabs, Rampkorv, ...) would definitely help, or even the Tech Members group as a whole, as that group puts some of its roots in trust between eachother, as well as technical knowledge above the average of course. The project would only benefit from this.

    I'm glad to see an opening about the artistic contributions, but this can't be enough. Art and music will be featured in a few selected zones (e.g. you won't have EHZ palmtrees in Metropolis), but the engine will be used throughout the whole game, you can't afford to have even the minimal imperfection in it. This whole board (and some other websites as well) are specialized into tearing apart every game (or software in general) which is released to the public. I'm sure the last thing you want is to see S2HD ending up like Sonic 06. And trust me, it will.
     
  17. LOst

    LOst

    Tech Members Tech Member
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    Some of you that haven't got a reply from me have been ignored by the "ignore user" function of this board (now or previously, as it is indefinite!). It filters out comments, so that I will only see the people that have valid input once the public Alpha is released.
    Just listen to what Vincent said already. Case closed.
     
  18. Afti

    Afti

    ORIGINAL MACHINE Member
    3,521
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    <!--quoteo(post=427596:date=Mar 18 2010, 10:49 AM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ Mar 18 2010, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427596"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...trusted individual... ...Afti...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Just noting that I would NOT be one of those trusted individuals; I do not believe myself at all capable of working on a project like this. And I rather doubt that I know the language.

    I simply can identify an unhealthy development model- and this is one.

    I am flattered, though!
     
  19. Sonic 2 HD will not be opensource in anyway, the farthest you'll be able to go is hacking it with <I>maybe</I> some editors released. His code is his code. I personally never saw this a project that belonged to Sonic Retro, but a project that was born here.
     
  20. Afti

    Afti

    ORIGINAL MACHINE Member
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    If you're refusing to either allow some sort of coding development beyond LOst's or, if he won't allow it, start over with an engine developed using a healthy model and adequately debugged...

    I'm sad to say I believe there is no hope for this project; either it will die due to your superb efforts to alienate the community, or it will be released as a buggy piece of vomit because of the fact that you had one person developing and debugging the engine. Either way, it's a waste of loads of potential, and it saddens me.
     
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