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General Project Thread & Feedback

Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by Vangar, Mar 8, 2008.

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  1. <!--quoteo(post=426745:date=Mar 16 2010, 07:25 PM:name=subsubstantive)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subsubstantive @ Mar 16 2010, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=426745">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"debate over which fireball gets used for Ghora. People had said they liked the Mario style, but thought the CG versions were much easier to efficiently create... Did the staff ever decide which they preferred? Do they have a verdict, and are you just leaving the rest of us in the dark?"

    And also, I think there is added value by having the "community" critique what is being made. For example, I recall making some suggestions to CN which were considered and often implemented, but when he disappeared from the scene, so too did any value I felt I could give.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I felt this was a fair question, it should have a simple answer... Why can't I get a non-diplomatic answer regarding these questions? Why should this need to wait until tomorrow? (Why would anyone answer this question either, I suppose?)
     
  2. Gambit

    Gambit

    Sonic 2 HD Staff - Level Artist Member
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    Oh, sorry about that. I was going to reply earlier but I totally forgot. We really don't know what to do with the fire yet and the reason CN got quieter is because he's been working on badniks. We obviously need fire for the buzzer and for the game in general, but we just haven't had time to sit down and toss around ideas and draw up concepts.
     
  3. saxman

    saxman

    Oldbie Tech Member
    My suggestion for the S2HD staff regarding contributions here without any idea if they'll be used or not is this:

    Appoint someone on the forums to handle the public. On the YouTube forums for example, there's a lady that (sometimes) responds to people who report bugs and have questions. She is the bridge between the YouTube programmers and the public. Granted, it looks like a frustrating position to be in considering how she has to take flack from people who are dissatisfied with YouTube when it's not her fault. On the other hand, she doesn't keep up with the posts as much as she should (a MAJOR frustration I had over there.) The result was this -- YouTube doesn't care about the people!... or at least that's the perception.

    So you should have someone be in charge and stay current with what goes on in these forum posts. This individual should relay suggestions from the people to the team, and report back to people. There needs to be more communication, or else the public will begin to resent it.

    That's my only real suggestion to the staff. I would strongly urge the team doing this, because bad PR is a bitch to clean up (trust me, I know!)



    Now, I believe being completely open is a bad idea. In that scenario, nobody will ever completely agree and therefore things would get stalled. If someone throws something in without the approval of others, people will take it personally and therefore, the project will be abandonned by supporters.

    Being completely closed has it's obvious drawback -- a weaker work force. You need people to help.

    I think you've got it about right, you just need to communicate more. That doesn't mean give away everything that's going on, that would be crazy. Leak things every once in a while, but keep the absolute best stuff for last. Build up to a release. At least, it appears that's what you're trying to do. I think with the previous silence though, it didn't help matters.

    I want to make it clear that I'm supportive of this project, regardless how the team wants to go about it. If it's wide open like a Linux-type deal, or only partially open the way they're doing it now, or completely closed. It doesn't matter to me. And actually, I'd like to add that in my opinion, I think being partially open is the best way to go about doing this. But, that will backfire if there is going to be a lack of communication, which again is why I think the team should consider my idea.
     
  4. Shadic

    Shadic

    Member
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    Home improvement eternal
    <!--quoteo(post=426977:date=Mar 17 2010, 12:13 AM:name=saxman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saxman @ Mar 17 2010, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=426977">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, I believe being completely open is a bad idea. In that scenario, nobody will ever completely agree and therefore things would get stalled. If someone throws something in without the approval of others, people will take it personally and therefore, the project will be abandonned by supporters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What? Have you been paying attention to what's been being said?

    It's incredibly easy to just ignore the stupid shit that people say. Everybody knows that 95% of the userbase here likes to bitch. about. every. fucking. detail.

    And if it's not completely open, then it's not an actual community project, and they should not get a sub-forum for them. That's the way the cookie crumbles. :v:

    I'll be interested in hearing how the talks go between the "Project Heads" and the Retro Staff. I sure hope everything goes public and open.
     
  5. zemulii

    zemulii

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    <!--quoteo(post=426977:date=Mar 17 2010, 08:13 PM:name=saxman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saxman @ Mar 17 2010, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=426977">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Appoint someone on the forums to handle the public.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But that's still separating the staff and the community. It's pretty much saying "we don't want to deal with them, so let someone else do it and we can get on with our own thing". I don't want to be "handled". I want the staff themselves to be a part of the community, and to value it's input (more - especially concerning their own work which is apparently above our criticism) :).

    You know what though? The LAST thing I want is for the project to lose it's forum. This is a special project regardless of how it's run. Staying "closed" most of us can agree will be bad for the project. But losing it's forum entirely I think would be terrible. Not that I actually think that's at all likely to happen either way...
     
  6. saxman

    saxman

    Oldbie Tech Member
    <!--quoteo(post=427005:date=Mar 17 2010, 05:00 AM:name=zemulii)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zemulii @ Mar 17 2010, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427005">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=426977:date=Mar 17 2010, 08:13 PM:name=saxman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saxman @ Mar 17 2010, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=426977">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Appoint someone on the forums to handle the public.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But that's still separating the staff and the community. It's pretty much saying "we don't want to deal with them, so let someone else do it and we can get on with our own thing". I don't want to be "handled". I want the staff themselves to be a part of the community, and to value it's input (more - especially concerning their own work which is apparently above our criticism) :).

    You know what though? The LAST thing I want is for the project to lose it's forum. This is a special project regardless of how it's run. Staying "closed" most of us can agree will be bad for the project. But losing it's forum entirely I think would be terrible. Not that I actually think that's at all likely to happen either way...
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah I thought of this while I was writing my idea, but the staff members have busy lives and can't always pay attention to the forums, nor can they always work on the project. This position would require someone with time and good organization skills to gather suggestions, contributions, etc. that need to be relayed to the staff. This position could even be held by someone who's already part of the team. It doesn't mean the staff is completely hands off in regards to the public, it simply means that there's someone there to make it all easier for them.

    Either way, they need some communication going on. I don't like seeing this project slammed over a trivial issue, and I'm sure they don't either.
     
  7. RAMPKORV

    RAMPKORV

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    The way this project is treated is like a project where your employees can't see what they're working on except a tease once a year. It's so uncool and stupid at the same time.
     
  8. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

    S2HD Project Manager Member
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    RAMPKORV, this has been acknowledged. And it's been brought up more than a few times. It's redundant at this point. We know. It'll be discussed with the admins among other things, and then we're going to give you guys a rundown of how things around here are going to change.

    As for a bridge between the staff and the contributors, it's not difficult to send anyone on staff a PM, and we've actively encouraged it since the very beginning. Send us a message, we'll get back to you. Got a concern in a specific area? Hey, we've got area coordinators to help out with just that. General concern? Hit me up. But that's just for matters that for whatever reason you're not comfortable posting in the topics. Put them there and and they'll be addressed. You want more staff involvement, that's fine by us.
     
  9. Gambit

    Gambit

    Sonic 2 HD Staff - Level Artist Member
    711
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    Sonic 2 HD
    <!--quoteo(post=427005:date=Mar 17 2010, 04:00 AM:name=zemulii)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zemulii @ Mar 17 2010, 04:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427005">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=426977:date=Mar 17 2010, 08:13 PM:name=saxman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saxman @ Mar 17 2010, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=426977">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Appoint someone on the forums to handle the public.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But that's still separating the staff and the community. It's pretty much saying "we don't want to deal with them, so let someone else do it and we can get on with our own thing". I don't want to be "handled". I want the staff themselves to be a part of the community, and to value it's input (more - especially concerning their own work which is apparently above our criticism) :).

    You know what though? The LAST thing I want is for the project to lose it's forum. This is a special project regardless of how it's run. Staying "closed" most of us can agree will be bad for the project. But losing it's forum entirely I think would be terrible. Not that I actually think that's at all likely to happen either way...
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Eh, for the most part we do a pretty good job of looking things over. A couple of us are busier than others though, but I still don't think it would really be a separation of staff and public. Like CK said, PM's should get answered fairly quickly if you need someone that you don't see as often around here, or if you just need to ask someone for a private opinion before throwing yourself out there to the wolves.
     
  10. kazade

    kazade

    Member
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    Hi all, I had to sign up to comment on this thread because - well it seems bizarre to me to say the least.

    First, I'll introduce myself. I'm a software developer, I've been hanging around on these forums for a long time now admiring the artwork and the enthusiasm of the community and waiting to hear about what is going on with the engine, because being a programmer, I'd be curious to see the code.

    Now, here's the thing. I've worked with many open source projects like Ubuntu and Wine and contributed fixes to various projects over the years and I've seen how projects and their communities work together. I've seen the iterative development the Sonic 2 HD community has done with the artwork to produce some truly epic pieces of work. This *community* has pretty much been following the open source model; working as a team, gradually improving until you have a product to be proud of.

    Let me point out the seemingly obvious thing (to me at least) that the Sonic 2 HD staff have missed completely; your community is your biggest asset. Without them you are nothing, if you continue to close yourself off from them and keep things secret from them, they will lose respect for you and the project. And at that point, no-one is going to care when the project is finished, because there will be so much bad karma floating around the whole thing.

    When I heard there was going to be announcement, I was convinced that you guys were finally open sourcing the engine, or at least releasing another test version to gather feedback. What you actually did was the biggest epic fail I have ever seen in a community project - you closed yourselves off more, well, at least made it more explicit, and basically gave the community the big FU.

    You want Sonic 2 HD to succeed? You want it to be ready more quickly? Then open the whole thing.

    Host the code somewhere, like launchpad, or sourceforge, open the artwork database so people can actually see what is going on or even store it in the same repository as the code. The staff are still the gate-keepers, you are the only ones with the write access to the code and the artwork, you get the final say, but you at least then give the community a chance to contribute. Let people submit artwork and just choose the best piece each time, if someone comes up with a better Badnik then replace the existing one, likewise if someone comes up with a way to improve the engine, then accept it.

    Sonic 2 HD Staff: You have the most willing workforce I've ever seen sat right here on the forums, and you are continually screwing them over. Don't do that. If you don't open up soon, then people will lose faith in this project eventually. What have you got to lose?

    Kazade
     
  11. Hamneggs

    Hamneggs

    Official Breakfast of S2HD Member
    303
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    TEXAS
    Networked lighting
    <!--quoteo(post=427155:date=Mar 17 2010, 12:34 PM:name=kazade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kazade @ Mar 17 2010, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427155">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, I'll introduce myself. I'm a software developer, I've been hanging around on these forums for a long time now admiring the artwork and the enthusiasm of the community and waiting to hear about what is going on with the engine, because being a programmer, I'd be curious to see the code.

    Kazade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It really sounds like if you got your hands on the code, you would work wonders with it. For your information, it has been said—somewhere, at least—that the current engine is a cleaned up, ported version of the S3&K engine. Perhaps you could use your 20 trial member posts sparingly and PM the Core Team, namely LoSt. and get your fingerprints on this project. If you could work your way in, maybe you could make the changes the rest of us are fighting for.
    That would almost make you our Ben Franklin if I'm not mistaken.
     
  12. RedStripedShoes

    RedStripedShoes

    And I'm gone again. Member
    <!--quoteo(post=427155:date=Mar 17 2010, 01:34 PM:name=kazade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kazade @ Mar 17 2010, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427155">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi all, I had to sign up to comment on this thread because - well it seems bizarre to me to say the least.

    First, I'll introduce myself. I'm a software developer, I've been hanging around on these forums for a long time now admiring the artwork and the enthusiasm of the community and waiting to hear about what is going on with the engine, because being a programmer, I'd be curious to see the code.

    Now, here's the thing. I've worked with many open source projects like Ubuntu and Wine and contributed fixes to various projects over the years and I've seen how projects and their communities work together. I've seen the iterative development the Sonic 2 HD community has done with the artwork to produce some truly epic pieces of work. This *community* has pretty much been following the open source model; working as a team, gradually improving until you have a product to be proud of.

    Let me point out the seemingly obvious thing (to me at least) that the Sonic 2 HD staff have missed completely; your community is your biggest asset. Without them you are nothing, if you continue to close yourself off from them and keep things secret from them, they will lose respect for you and the project. And at that point, no-one is going to care when the project is finished, because there will be so much bad karma floating around the whole thing.

    When I heard there was going to be announcement, I was convinced that you guys were finally open sourcing the engine, or at least releasing another test version to gather feedback. What you actually did was the biggest epic fail I have ever seen in a community project - you closed yourselves off more, well, at least made it more explicit, and basically gave the community the big FU.

    You want Sonic 2 HD to succeed? You want it to be ready more quickly? Then open the whole thing.

    Host the code somewhere, like launchpad, or sourceforge, open the artwork database so people can actually see what is going on or even store it in the same repository as the code. The staff are still the gate-keepers, you are the only ones with the write access to the code and the artwork, you get the final say, but you at least then give the community a chance to contribute. Let people submit artwork and just choose the best piece each time, if someone comes up with a better Badnik then replace the existing one, likewise if someone comes up with a way to improve the engine, then accept it.

    Sonic 2 HD Staff: You have the most willing workforce I've ever seen sat right here on the forums, and you are continually screwing them over. Don't do that. If you don't open up soon, then people will lose faith in this project eventually. What have you got to lose?

    Kazade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm RedStripedShoes, and I approve this message.
     
  13. NioZero

    NioZero

    Member
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    Tornado Sky Fighters
    <!--quoteo(post=427155:date=Mar 17 2010, 02:34 PM:name=kazade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kazade @ Mar 17 2010, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427155">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Host the code somewhere, like launchpad, or sourceforge, open the artwork database so people can actually see what is going on or even store it in the same repository as the code. The staff are still the gate-keepers, you are the only ones with the write access to the code and the artwork, you get the final say, but you at least then give the community a chance to contribute. Let people submit artwork and just choose the best piece each time, if someone comes up with a better Badnik then replace the existing one, likewise if someone comes up with a way to improve the engine, then accept it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    sonic retro even has a svn server (now inactive, but hopefully for not too long), which is widely used for open-source projects... as it could be this ...

    I'm a programmer and I also like to contribute in some way...
     
  14. kazade

    kazade

    Member
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    A 2D Physics Engine
    <!--quoteo(post=427170:date=Mar 17 2010, 07:20 PM:name=Hamneggs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hamneggs @ Mar 17 2010, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427170">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=427155:date=Mar 17 2010, 12:34 PM:name=kazade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kazade @ Mar 17 2010, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427155">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, I'll introduce myself. I'm a software developer, I've been hanging around on these forums for a long time now admiring the artwork and the enthusiasm of the community and waiting to hear about what is going on with the engine, because being a programmer, I'd be curious to see the code.

    Kazade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It really sounds like if you got your hands on the code, you would work wonders with it. For your information, it has been said—somewhere, at least—that the current engine is a cleaned up, ported version of the S3&K engine. Perhaps you could use your 20 trial member posts sparingly and PM the Core Team, namely LoSt. and get your fingerprints on this project. If you could work your way in, maybe you could make the changes the rest of us are fighting for.
    That would almost make you our Ben Franklin if I'm not mistaken.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Unfortunately I don't have time to commit myself to the project at the moment. If the staff did open up everything then of course I'd contribute patches, fix bugs etc. when I could. That said, even if I did have time, absorbing another member into the S2HD staff clique isn't going to solve the issue, I find it unlikely that a new member would have much of a say.

    LoSt, if you are reading, I'd love to know your reasons for keeping the source closed, I fail to see how it brings you any benefit. Opening the source would give you testers and more developers and would result in cleaner, better, more stable code and faster development. It would also allow for a whole array of new projects based on the code, even different games with different characters (look at OpenArena, AlienArena, Tremulous etc. all based on Quake 3 which was open sourced). You open it, you open up a load of possibilities, you keep it closed and it will never be as good as it could have been.

    So to sum it up, if it was open I (and likely many others) would contribute, as it's closed I won't. Until that changes I'll resume my silent watching. :)

    P.S. How do I stop the 20 post limit?
     
  15. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

    S2HD Project Manager Member
    806
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    Sonic 2 HD, various 3D work
    kazade, don't worry about the post limit. It's mostly in place to keep people from proving themselves useless after they sign up. You're providing the sort of feedback we're looking for. I've let LOst know about things here, and it's really his area to respond in.
     
  16. RAMPKORV

    RAMPKORV

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    I'd recommend someone on the staff to take the important decision to tell LOst to either open source this, or make someone else in charge of a new open sourced engine. Someone who doesn't share his work shouldn't have business in a community project.
     
  17. nineko

    nineko

    I am the Holy Cat Tech Member
    6,192
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    italy
    <!--quoteo(post=427196:date=Mar 17 2010, 09:25 PM:name=NioZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NioZero @ Mar 17 2010, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427196">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sonic retro even has a svn server (now inactive, but hopefully for not too long)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=11996&view=findpost&p=426107" target="_blank">* COUGH *</a>

    <!--quoteo(post=427198:date=Mar 17 2010, 09:28 PM:name=kazade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kazade @ Mar 17 2010, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427198">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do I stop the 20 post limit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=427205:date=Mar 17 2010, 09:36 PM:name=Canned Karma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canned Karma @ Mar 17 2010, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427205">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kazade, don't worry about the post limit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You don't "stop" the 20 posts limit. All the newcomers get on the forum as Trial members and are subject to this initial restriction, to let the Site Staff know if they are good posters or trolls, or worse. Use these 20 posts exactly as you would use the infinite amount you'd get as a full Member, be honest and smart, and as Canned Karma said, don't worry too much about it. From what I could see you already look like much better than many other people we have around here so I doubt you're going to have problems with this. You might look at <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=19655&view=findpost&p=414201" target="_blank">this post</a> to get some other details about the registration process, which is indeed quite a bit more complicated here on Retro.

    That said, good luck on getting LOst to open source the engine. Many other people including (off the top of my mind) GerbilSoft, Andlabs, King Inuyasha, and Rampkorv, already tried, with no luck whatsoever.

    edit: added Rampkorv to the last sentence, yay for timing :v:
     
  18. NioZero

    NioZero

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    <!--quoteo(post=427217:date=Mar 17 2010, 04:55 PM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ Mar 17 2010, 04:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427217">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=427196:date=Mar 17 2010, 09:25 PM:name=NioZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NioZero @ Mar 17 2010, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427196">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sonic retro even has a svn server (now inactive, but hopefully for not too long)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=11996&view=findpost&p=426107" target="_blank">* COUGH *</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I haven't checked the server directly... only <a href="http://svn.sonicretro.org/" target="_blank">this url</a> that doesn't work... but whatever...
     
  19. Aberdorf

    Aberdorf

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    Thank you very much Kazade, I was in doubt about that thing of "20 post limit".

    About S2 HD, I would like to congratulate the team behind this future fan game masterpiece, it look like it will be beyond all my expectations (and something that maybe Sega will not be able to top). Since I've played Sonic 2 in 1995, S2 become my favorite Sonic game ever (even better than the classic Sonic the Hedgehog CD). Just the fact that I would be able to play Sonic 2 in High Definition, and even better, on my Macbook PRO (with Windows instead of Mac OS X unfortunately), bring me back so many memories of my childhood (with a Super NES but my friend with a Genesis/Mega Drive). Thank you very much, looking forward to play it, and to contribute someway with it in the future.

    I know it sound corny, but I had to say something about this project (even through is not a "Community Project" anymore, at least I think), and hoping that maybe in the future we will be able to play Sonic the Hedgehog HD, Sonic CD HD and Sonic 3 & Knuckles HD.
     
  20. zemulii

    zemulii

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    <!--quoteo(post=427118:date=Mar 18 2010, 06:09 AM:name=Gambit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gambit @ Mar 18 2010, 06:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427118">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh, for the most part we do a pretty good job of looking things over. A couple of us are busier than others though, but I still don't think it would really be a separation of staff and public. Like CK said, PM's should get answered fairly quickly if you need someone that you don't see as often around here, or if you just need to ask someone for a private opinion before throwing yourself out there to the wolves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah, maybe I exaggerated that a little... Actually I appreciate the help you give to contributors on the forum (obviously). And the one PM I ever sent was answered very hastily :). I have more of a problem with the fact that it is pretty much a one way thing.
     
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