Farewell Sonic X

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Jack Wallace, Apr 20, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Solaris Paradox

    Solaris Paradox

    Member
    2,456
    0
    0
    On my butt in front of the computer. Where else?
    I'm working on working up the willpower to work on learning how to make my own Sonic fangames. Not quite there yet.
    <!--quoteo(post=445467:date=Apr 20 2010, 11:29 PM:name=Azukara)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azukara @ Apr 20 2010, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445467">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok ok, lemme rephrase to "terrible under my own tastes". :v:

    I gotta agree with OSM on this one; I like the AoSTH direction taken. Sonic best fits in my mind with cartoony settings and whimsy, and Looney Tunes-like structured stories. I didn't like when Sonic was serious in SA2, Shadow or Nextgen, and neither did I like serious Sonic in SatAM. It just isn't Sonic to me.

    Unless you could find a medium. The OVA and SA1 certainly fit this bill, and really it works best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    SatAM isn't really all that serious, it's just grimdark and story-centric. That doesn't necessarily mean it takes itself 100% seriously, and really, it doesn't, it has its obvious "cartoon" moments and quite a lot of them.

    It was just a different angle from the other show, that's all. They went for two different audiences at once by making two different shows. I think it was a good system.
     
  2. Phos

    Phos

    Going for the high score on whatever that little b Member
    3,318
    0
    0
    You know that episode of the Power Rangers where they fight that guy from that other show made by the same company as the original Sentai shows? The one guy on his own is able to fight the entire team to a standstill, then they realize that neither one of them are evil, and they work together on something. To me, that's kind of how I see SatAM, only even more so because they don't even seem to be from the same "verse". It's basically a crossover that forgot to end, and from what I know of the show's production, that's basically what it was. A higher up in the show's production was constantly fighting with SoA to get them to approve things in the show (I wouldn't be surprised if this hassle is what actually led to the show being canceled), and SoA canon was already loose as it was. The entire case of SatAM specific characters are drawn in a significantly style and not a single one of them is anything but archetypal of other late 80's/early 90's cartoons. That kind of goes for the rest of the show, it really didn't do anything interesting. There are episodes of He-Man with more depth to them.

    Ever wondered why Sonic tells kids to never get into washing machines? <a href="http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/225635" target="_blank">Here's why!</a>
     
  3. Ayla

    Ayla

    I shat on your desk ^^ Oldbie
    1,760
    0
    16
    West Linn, OR
    Hacking Contest, StH Overlooked, Personal Indie game
    <!--quoteo(post=445380:date=Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445380">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, "he" is usable as a gender-neutral term if the individual's gender is unknown, so that doesn't mean it was assumed she was male.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Perhaps, although it's dated and rapidly changing. Many teachers are now requiring clarification of gender as "they" is not acceptable. While "he" may be substituted as a gender-neutral term in the english language, it perpetuates sexism in the very fiber of our everyday speech. This is anal and, in my personal opinion, quite unacceptable. Rather than impregnate sentences with an ambiguous "they" or using the masculine pronoun in reference to a female (which is inaccurate and, to many people, offensive), I suggest that people use "he or she", "s/he", or some other way of not making sexist assumptions.

    Yes. It is sexist. Not that you or anyone else is making the conscious decision to do so, but our very language influences our way of thinking. This known as Sapir-Whorf Theory. Check it out =)
     
  4. Solaris Paradox

    Solaris Paradox

    Member
    2,456
    0
    0
    On my butt in front of the computer. Where else?
    I'm working on working up the willpower to work on learning how to make my own Sonic fangames. Not quite there yet.
    ...And that's one more small reason on top of a very long list of reasons why I can't stand society and its stupid mind games...
     
  5. Afti

    Afti

    ORIGINAL MACHINE Member
    3,521
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=445506:date=Apr 21 2010, 02:53 AM:name=Ayla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ayla @ Apr 21 2010, 02:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445506">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445380:date=Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445380">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, "he" is usable as a gender-neutral term if the individual's gender is unknown, so that doesn't mean it was assumed she was male.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Perhaps, although it's dated and rapidly changing. Many teachers are now requiring clarification of gender as "they" is not acceptable. While "he" may be substituted as a gender-neutral term in the english language, it perpetuates sexism in the very fiber of our everyday speech. This is anal and, in my personal opinion, quite unacceptable. Rather than impregnate sentences with an ambiguous "they" or using the masculine pronoun in reference to a female (which is inaccurate and, to many people, offensive), I suggest that people use "he or she", "s/he", or some other way of not making sexist assumptions.

    Yes. It is sexist. Not that you or anyone else is making the conscious decision to do so, but our very language influences our way of thinking. This known as Sapir-Whorf Theory. Check it out =)
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh, there's no doubt that male-assumptive grammar is at least somewhat sexist in origin; however, there's no real gender neutral alternative beyond improper, ambiguous terms such as "they" and clumsy, inelegant constructs such as "he or she" or "s/he".

    I know what Sapir-Whorf is; however, if you understand more modern material on linguistic relativism you'll find that the effect is far less pronounced than it is according to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Gender-neutral "he" has an origin in chauvinistic thought, but that doesn't mean it imparts chauvinism on its users. The ideal situation would be a proper gender-neutral pronoun, which would be both less clumsy than s/he and friends and have the additional nuance of meaning that gender-neutral "he" doesn't quite have. Regardless, until a gender-neutral pronoun enters common usage, neutral "he" is less ambiguous than "they" and less clumsy than "he or she", let alone "s/he". It's inadequate, but language by its very nature is a lump of inadequacies that together form a working unit. There are plenty of inconsistencies and oddities in every language, and this is actually one of the more common ones.

    I'm pretty sure this needs split.
     
  6. Lanzer

    Lanzer

    The saber calls for its master... Member
    6,845
    3
    18
    Glendale, AZ
    Living life.
    <!--quoteo(post=445509:date=Apr 21 2010, 03:21 AM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Apr 21 2010, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445509">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445506:date=Apr 21 2010, 02:53 AM:name=Ayla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ayla @ Apr 21 2010, 02:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445506">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445380:date=Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445380">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, "he" is usable as a gender-neutral term if the individual's gender is unknown, so that doesn't mean it was assumed she was male.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Perhaps, although it's dated and rapidly changing. Many teachers are now requiring clarification of gender as "they" is not acceptable. While "he" may be substituted as a gender-neutral term in the english language, it perpetuates sexism in the very fiber of our everyday speech. This is anal and, in my personal opinion, quite unacceptable. Rather than impregnate sentences with an ambiguous "they" or using the masculine pronoun in reference to a female (which is inaccurate and, to many people, offensive), I suggest that people use "he or she", "s/he", or some other way of not making sexist assumptions.

    Yes. It is sexist. Not that you or anyone else is making the conscious decision to do so, but our very language influences our way of thinking. This known as Sapir-Whorf Theory. Check it out =)
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh, there's no doubt that male-assumptive grammar is at least somewhat sexist in origin; however, there's no real gender neutral alternative beyond improper, ambiguous terms such as "they" and clumsy, inelegant constructs such as "he or she" or "s/he".

    I know what Sapir-Whorf is; however, if you understand more modern material on linguistic relativism you'll find that the effect is far less pronounced than it is according to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Gender-neutral "he" has an origin in chauvinistic thought, but that doesn't mean it imparts chauvinism on its users. The ideal situation would be a proper gender-neutral pronoun, which would be both less clumsy than s/he and friends and have the additional nuance of meaning that gender-neutral "he" doesn't quite have. Regardless, until a gender-neutral pronoun enters common usage, neutral "he" is less ambiguous than "they" and less clumsy than "he or she", let alone "s/he". It's inadequate, but language by its very nature is a lump of inadequacies that together form a working unit. There are plenty of inconsistencies and oddities in every language, and this is actually one of the more common ones.

    I'm pretty sure this needs split.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ...You made my brain hurt Its just too early to take in all those complicated words (5:16am). :v:

    Split the topic.
     
  7. Toasty

    Toasty

    BulbaSAUR! Member
    Bye Sonic X! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out! :)

    By the way, the whole internet is "sexist" if we're talking about gender assumption. There have been so many times where I'm referred to as "he" or "him" that I just don't even correct people anymore. :v:
     
  8. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

    Member
    2,119
    304
    63
    <!--quoteo(post=445460:date=Apr 20 2010, 11:11 PM:name=Azukara)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azukara @ Apr 20 2010, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445460">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Bugs Bunny could run his own dealio of assorted episodes and sketches then Sonic can too.

    Okay, Sonic did get quite a bit of screentime on SatAM, but you can't lie by saying it wasn't indeed muddled down by many many characters, and while Sonic may have been overpowered, he was overpowered in Sonic X as well, but that didn't make him any better of a character. He was still not exactly the main focus of the series, as it was still about saving Mobius' kingdom, finding the king, doing random stuff relating to the show's specific characters and stuff of that kind. The pilot, the episode where he raced the robot cheetah, and the one where he had his running powers taken away or something were the only episodes I really liked because the focus was mostly on him and that's what I had come to watch a Sonic show for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think Sonic X screwed up Sonic the most as not only was he overpowered, the focus and sympathy wasn't even on him. He was more a symbolism of awesome for other characters like Chris and the likes to look up to. AoSth, being based on Bugs Bunny, similarly was usually a dominating winner, though even more like Bugs, had a plausible amount of charm and pathos to make him sympathetic, par perhaps the early higher budget episodes, Sonic X Sonic was more a prop (kinda more like Speedy Gonzales actually). :v:

    As for SatAm, while Sonic was the most pivotal in terms of physical power (Bunnie and Dulcy never seemed to do much for some reason) he was also extremely arrogant and kinda dim witted (something that often got him into harms way) and lacked technical smarts that were often extremely necessary to a mission. Actually one the common complaints I hear about the SatAm version is him being a manchild that was dependant on Sally.

    As for the 'darkness' I have to agree that SatAm, while 'dark' in tone, was actually more toned down and balanced about it, and still had a consistantly whimsical vibe to it compared to Sonic X's extreme 'mood whiplash', compared to the early cartoony episodes, the Season Two Finale just seems jarringly morbid.
     
  9. Bobinator

    Bobinator

    My thoughts on your posting Member
    Honestly, I would have killed for the Man of the Year short from Sonic Jam to be made into a series. It's pretty much the character designs of the OVA and the general mood of AoStH, and it would have been really interesting to have it gone somewhere. I wonder what happened, maybe it was just a pilot that never got picked up.

    Video is <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpSKzaq3-cw" target="_blank">here</a> if you don't know what I'm talking about.
     
  10. 0r4ng3

    0r4ng3

    Member
    1,318
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=445469:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:35 AM:name=Solaris Paradox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Apr 21 2010, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445469">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445467:date=Apr 20 2010, 11:29 PM:name=Azukara)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azukara @ Apr 20 2010, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445467">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok ok, lemme rephrase to "terrible under my own tastes". :v:

    I gotta agree with OSM on this one; I like the AoSTH direction taken. Sonic best fits in my mind with cartoony settings and whimsy, and Looney Tunes-like structured stories. I didn't like when Sonic was serious in SA2, Shadow or Nextgen, and neither did I like serious Sonic in SatAM. It just isn't Sonic to me.

    Unless you could find a medium. The OVA and SA1 certainly fit this bill, and really it works best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    SatAM isn't really all that serious, it's just grimdark and story-centric. That doesn't necessarily mean it takes itself 100% seriously, and really, it doesn't, it has its obvious "cartoon" moments and quite a lot of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's how AOSTH is a far superior cartoon <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">imo<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, even if it wasn't as nicely written or animated. AOSTH was just mindless fun, the kid watching it wasn't required to think to enjoy the show, everything was there for him/her to see. Even things that don't make any sense whatsoever are just there to be laughed at, not to be pointed at boo as it cannot be possible. Anyone with half a brain knows the show was supposed to be over the top and stupid like that. It doesn't try to be more than it was, stupidity with Sonic the Hedgehog and his pals and the local villain who never gets his way.

    SatAM on the other hand, tried to be dark. It failed miserably when Robotnik cannot step up and be a reasonable villain (amongst other things) and the story tries to be interesting sure, but thinking about half of the stuff that happens each episode makes it all fall apart. It's trying to be more than it should be, or is trying to mash up things that don't mesh up with each other. It doesn't know what's trying to be. An example, Robotization. Oh it's such a dark concept with slavery and overriding of one's free will. But then the only characters who get robotized are fodder and the only one who we can relate is uncle Chuck (through Sonic, not through him as a character alone), has regained his senses in the first time we see him. The point is, if you're trying to make a point, then show it rather than talk about it or take the easy way out.

    Sonic X... I'm not sure what it's supposed to be either, but I can't deny that it's supposed to bring everyone from the games together, with a bit of funny and a bit of seriousness thrown in together like in the games, and it manages to do that most of the time.

    I'm still waiting for a good Sonic show. Take the OVA as an example to follow.

    note: Sorry about the imo in large letters, but I've found that some SatAM fans get really annoyed when anyone states their show sucks without saying it's opinion. Kind of shows here too, lol.
     
  11. Volpino

    Volpino

    Things are looking up! Member
    1,207
    0
    0
    A secret. >:3
    <!--quoteo(post=445302:date=Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM:name=Ayla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ayla @ Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445302">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->SatAM or nothing. The OVA didn't suck, though. All the other sonic incarnations can die in a fire -- especially Sonic X =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You, sir, are my hero of the day. This is the most intelligent thing I've heard all day. I would kill to see a revival and continuation of SatAM.

    Goodbye Sonic X and don't let the door hit'cha where the dog shouldda bit'cha.
     
  12. ShadowPhantom

    ShadowPhantom

    Bow your heads low, all hail Shadow!
    20
    0
    0
    Station Square
    Practicing drawing Sonic.
    I always liked the OVA. That'wasn't bad. I could do with a sequel to that maybe.
     
  13. Elratauru

    Elratauru

    Little Shiny Emurralds Member
    I watched Sonic X in Japanese (But last season in French) and I must say that It was freaking awesome. To me, its the most faithful Sonic cartoon ever after all, you know, nice characters, videogame characters... (At least..Post-SA), the seiyus were perfect for each character (At least in Japanese of course), it had recreation from the Dreamcast the games (Egg Carrier, Chaos, Biolizard, ARK, and even Sonic Battle), and even had awesome insert music (Live and Learn in the last battle, from SA2 in the episode...48 or 49 if Im not wrong..)

    The last season of Sonic X made me cry so much, mostly the last episodes...but I would not like new episodes and Im glad its finished already. I like how it ended. So, adding more things would be bad to me.
     
  14. Overlord

    Overlord

    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    18,318
    409
    63
    Berkshire, England
    Learning Cymraeg
    <!--quoteo(post=445695:date=Apr 21 2010, 07:41 PM:name=0r4ng3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (0r4ng3 @ Apr 21 2010, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445695">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445469:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:35 AM:name=Solaris Paradox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Apr 21 2010, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445469">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445467:date=Apr 20 2010, 11:29 PM:name=Azukara)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azukara @ Apr 20 2010, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445467">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok ok, lemme rephrase to "terrible under my own tastes". :v:

    I gotta agree with OSM on this one; I like the AoSTH direction taken. Sonic best fits in my mind with cartoony settings and whimsy, and Looney Tunes-like structured stories. I didn't like when Sonic was serious in SA2, Shadow or Nextgen, and neither did I like serious Sonic in SatAM. It just isn't Sonic to me.

    Unless you could find a medium. The OVA and SA1 certainly fit this bill, and really it works best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    SatAM isn't really all that serious, it's just grimdark and story-centric. That doesn't necessarily mean it takes itself 100% seriously, and really, it doesn't, it has its obvious "cartoon" moments and quite a lot of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's how AOSTH is a far superior cartoon imo, even if it wasn't as nicely written or animated. AOSTH was just mindless fun, the kid watching it wasn't required to think to enjoy the show, everything was there for him/her to see. Even things that don't make any sense whatsoever are just there to be laughed at, not to be pointed at boo as it cannot be possible. Anyone with half a brain knows the show was supposed to be over the top and stupid like that. It doesn't try to be more than it was, stupidity with Sonic the Hedgehog and his pals and the local villain who never gets his way.

    SatAM on the other hand, tried to be dark. It failed miserably when Robotnik cannot step up and be a reasonable villain (amongst other things) and the story tries to be interesting sure, but thinking about half of the stuff that happens each episode makes it all fall apart. It's trying to be more than it should be, or is trying to mash up things that don't mesh up with each other. It doesn't know what's trying to be. An example, Robotization. Oh it's such a dark concept with slavery and overriding of one's free will. But then the only characters who get robotized are fodder and the only one who we can relate is uncle Chuck (through Sonic, not through him as a character alone), has regained his senses in the first time we see him. The point is, if you're trying to make a point, then show it rather than talk about it or take the easy way out.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    *applauds*

    You've summed up my feelings on AoStH vs SatAM perfectly. I always viewed Sonic as far more light hearted and fun, and as such AoStH fit perfectly. SatAM stuck out like a sore thumb, not to mention the huge variety of regular cast characters who weren't in the games at all (no, a single bonus stage in Sonic Spinball doesn't count. For one thing, it's a sidegame, not a main one =P).

    For the same reason, I liked Sonic X - by and large, it fits into the Sonic Adventure/2 canon, making it fairly faithful to the game material. The OVA too - it fits fairly well into the games style. Plus Knuckles in a pimp hat is badass however you style it. =P
     
  15. Ayla

    Ayla

    I shat on your desk ^^ Oldbie
    1,760
    0
    16
    West Linn, OR
    Hacking Contest, StH Overlooked, Personal Indie game
    <!--quoteo(post=445509:date=Apr 21 2010, 01:21 AM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Apr 21 2010, 01:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445509">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445506:date=Apr 21 2010, 02:53 AM:name=Ayla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ayla @ Apr 21 2010, 02:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445506">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445380:date=Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Apr 20 2010, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445380">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, "he" is usable as a gender-neutral term if the individual's gender is unknown, so that doesn't mean it was assumed she was male.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Perhaps, although it's dated and rapidly changing. Many teachers are now requiring clarification of gender as "they" is not acceptable. While "he" may be substituted as a gender-neutral term in the english language, it perpetuates sexism in the very fiber of our everyday speech. This is anal and, in my personal opinion, quite unacceptable. Rather than impregnate sentences with an ambiguous "they" or using the masculine pronoun in reference to a female (which is inaccurate and, to many people, offensive), I suggest that people use "he or she", "s/he", or some other way of not making sexist assumptions.

    Yes. It is sexist. Not that you or anyone else is making the conscious decision to do so, but our very language influences our way of thinking. This known as Sapir-Whorf Theory. Check it out =)
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh, there's no doubt that male-assumptive grammar is at least somewhat sexist in origin; however, there's no real gender neutral alternative beyond improper, ambiguous terms such as "they" and clumsy, inelegant constructs such as "he or she" or "s/he".

    I know what Sapir-Whorf is; however, if you understand more modern material on linguistic relativism you'll find that the effect is far less pronounced than it is according to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Gender-neutral "he" has an origin in chauvinistic thought, but that doesn't mean it imparts chauvinism on its users. The ideal situation would be a proper gender-neutral pronoun, which would be both less clumsy than s/he and friends and have the additional nuance of meaning that gender-neutral "he" doesn't quite have. Regardless, until a gender-neutral pronoun enters common usage, neutral "he" is less ambiguous than "they" and less clumsy than "he or she", let alone "s/he". It's inadequate, but language by its very nature is a lump of inadequacies that together form a working unit. There are plenty of inconsistencies and oddities in every language, and this is actually one of the more common ones.

    I'm pretty sure this needs split.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'd actually vote it be added to the feminism topic in the other forum as this is the last I have to say on the matter. It should be noted that gender neutral pronouns evolved out of the english language. Originally there was "Ou" that was used as gender neutral that could refer to as he / she / it. This was dropped many centuries ago. I agree that it would be awkward to bring it back into speech as some have tried to do with "hir" and "ze", but I don't see what the beef with "they" is.

    It should also be noted that it, indeed, DOES impart at least the assumption of male gender when gender is unknown on its users as the entire reason this argument was started was based on the assumption that someone was male who was not.
     
  16. Volpino

    Volpino

    Things are looking up! Member
    1,207
    0
    0
    A secret. >:3
    And now I'm finally caught up on all the posts (skipping the OT ones about gender on the internet. :v: )

    This post is long and mostly my opinion, if you disagree, please don't think it's an attack on your opinions because it isn't and it isn't directed at any other members, only with what was said about these topics.

    It's ironic how some people like AoStH because it wasn't structured and it was blatant stupidity because that's exactly why I hate it, possibly more than Sonic X. Sonic X tried to have a sensible continuity even though the show wasn't anything like the canons that came before it and was just advertising for the newer games with bad English dubs, AoStH was shitty American cartooning with disproportionate character movements, ugly as hell facial expressions, bad voice acting (Sonic sounded like an old lady with a nicotine addiction) and the worst plot of any Sonic game. Yes, it was like that on purpose, but it never should've existed because usually when a cartoon goes with a game (not the other way around) it should be filling in what the game did not. Obviously games weren't advanced back then to have cinematic cut-scenes and the story had to be put in the manual, but making a cartoon should be explaining through an actual story, WHY this random blue hedgehog and his two-tailed flying fox kid are chasing a fat man about a fictional planet.

    AoStH never explained where Sonic came from, while it did tell how he and Tails met it didn't explain why this fox was born with two tails or where his parents were (and the end of the episode gives some cockslap to older audiences about how it doesn't even matter which looked like they were trying to avoid getting too detailed anyway) and Robotnik's explanation for why he was evil was the single dumbest thing I've ever seen.

    If I wanted a story about how someone turned dark, emo and evil overnight because some twat stole their girlfriend, I would read a 16 year old boy's deviantART journal and get the same effect. It was just so laughable and not serious in any way it was ridiculous. That entire series is a facepalm, and the only thing that makes it worse is that it did that on purpose. It's disgusting. Not to mention the art style looked like Toon Disney's not-so-surprisingly bad artists didn't know how to draw anything but recolored Mickey Mouses which was exactly what I thought of that style. It didn't look so odd on Sonic since Sonic's always looked like that but compare the classic 'American' Tails to the Japanese. The Japanese looks like a fox, and the American looks like a rat with an oversied nose, creepy tiny eyes that look too confident to fit on the character right and, oh! He's not even the right color. Big surprise there. And what the hell was Robotnik ON in that series? He looked partially female, his voice was your classic stereotypical eveldoer with too many 'R' sounds in his speech and he honestly looked like someone took a Santa Clause sketch and traced it. Where did they come up with that? I don't remember any official artwork looking like that.

    And my usual complaint with any American-born cartoon is present in this one: Why do they only have four fingers? Sonic clearly has five in all of his official art. Why couldn't they add a finger? I bet that cartoon would have looked so much better if Disney weren't drawing it. They just happened to be the head dicks in cartooning at the time and both AoStH and SatAM suffered major art quality problems for it.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Now about SatAM, it doesn't stick to the games at all, Sonic has to work with other characters, Tails plays a minor role (but it was supposedly going to become a larger role when the series reached the third season that we sadly never got to.) and Knuckles and most other characters (besides some Badniks) were absent entirely, BUT at least it was more serious. This is why I like it, while it isn't as serious as other things I do like, it's not utter stupidity like AoStH. You couldn't be analytical with AoStH like you could with SatAM, and being analytical is one of my favorite activities. Again, it had loose ends that were never tied because the series didn't make it far enough to explain them, but it didn't offer dumb explanations for everything. At least 'Julian' Robotnik wasn't an incompetent retard and actually managed to look menacing. I forgot who did his voice acting, but the voice was so brilliant, and it fit the character. Sonic's voice was annoying in SatAM, but it improved as the series progressed. Tails' voice was perfect in SatAM since he sounded like a little boy that wouldn't grow up to bite the pillow. And I don't know why some hate Sally's voice, but can stand Amy's from Sonic X so much more. Amy's voice is loud and hard on the ears. Sally's voice is more womanlike and the pitch is easier to deal with. The story wasn't 'deep', but it made sense for the most part. (I would have liked to know more about Dulcy but they did touch on it in the time travel episode, and I would have liked at least one episode about where Tails came from) Focusing on multiple characters other than the star is called character development and if a story doesn't have that, it becomes shallow and one-sided. It might even become AoStH.

    This is also why I like Sonic Underground. Next to SatAM, it's my favorite, because even if it was so off-track to the official canon, and every other canon, it did a good job of being it's own canon. I'm more than certain if Sonic were changed to an original character that series would have stood just fine. In fact, I believe the only reason it's hated so much is because it was nothing like the games. I would rather a Sonic cartoon be nothing like the games than try to be like the games like Sonic X did, because all Sonic X did was induce tears when I saw what they were doing to the Sonic canon. Sonic underground was 'off-topic' but when's the last time it butchered one of the games because it tried to reference it? It wasn't even written badly, it just ended incomplete with ten episodes missing, and I would sacrifice the blood of a thousand baby kittens to have those last ten episodes.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The Sonic OVA had the best art of any Sonic cartoon because it looked like the official art. The voice acting for English was terribly unbearable, over-the-top classic Anime dub which is only slightly above Sonic X because the hero of any older anime traditionally has an 'epic', 'over-the-top' voice to sound more heroic, and me, having watched and enjoyed the original Astro Boy English version didn't mind it as much as I do these 'new' Anime voice dubs. But they were still terrible and I would love for them to tone that 'epic' aspect of the voices down if they ever remake the movie into a series.
     
  17. Limited animation, tv cartoon budgets, less time spent drawing that extra finger, you know the drill.
     
  18. Ayla

    Ayla

    I shat on your desk ^^ Oldbie
    1,760
    0
    16
    West Linn, OR
    Hacking Contest, StH Overlooked, Personal Indie game
    <!--quoteo(post=445877:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:06 PM:name=Volpino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volpino @ Apr 21 2010, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445877">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*awesome post*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Those are my feelings entirely. I didn't like Sonic Underground because it was a little too happy-go-lucky for me (with robotnik's two henchman, fuck if I remember their names) and the songs were god awful. Kill the cheesiness and having to hear anyone sing (minus the mobodoon episode with manic singing. That one was at least bearable) and it could have been alright. I think I was mostly bitter I didn't get my SatAM continuation :(
     
  19. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

    Member
    2,119
    304
    63
    I think the reason people can stand AoSth being 'stupid' is because it's supposed to be for the most part. There's a difference between trying to goofy and being inadvertantly laughable. I won't deny it's corniness was over the top at points but it was often stuff on par with an average Golden Age cartoon (ever watched a Bob Clampett short or some Chuck Jones work like 'The Dover Boys'? They're often ridiculous beyond belief, and hilarious as a result). Also despite it's low budget, AoSth at least manipulated it and made things expressive and exagerrative (in comparison to a lot of DiC's often 'static' animation at the time).

    SatAm and Sonic X and the likes, while certainly having their high points, had an occasionally pretentious air to them, and tried to assume depth and wit they didn't have (and on occasion didn't belong in the Sonic franchise to begin with). Often the times they came off as 'dumb' was because of some bad attempt at drama or a screwed up plot point (not that they couldn't do AoSth humor at times, especially early on in both shows' run). AoSth was simplistic and as such had nothing to lose, and even then it had the occasional successful development (probably has the most endearing development between Sonic and Tails out of all enterpretations).
     
  20. Volpino

    Volpino

    Things are looking up! Member
    1,207
    0
    0
    A secret. >:3
    <!--quoteo(post=445896:date=Apr 21 2010, 06:31 PM:name=Ayla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ayla @ Apr 21 2010, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445896">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=445877:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:06 PM:name=Volpino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volpino @ Apr 21 2010, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445877">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*awesome post*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Those are my feelings entirely. I didn't like Sonic Underground because it was a little too happy-go-lucky for me (with robotnik's two henchman, fuck if I remember their names) and the songs were god awful. Kill the cheesiness and having to hear anyone sing (minus the mobodoon episode with manic singing. That one was at least bearable) and it could have been alright. I think I was mostly bitter I didn't get my SatAM continuation :(
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Some of the songs are a little annoying but I remember a few that I thought were catchy, and of any Sonic character ever voiced in a Sonic cartoon, I don't think any of them had a better voice actor than Manic, who remains one of my favorite characters of all time, that being one of the reasons why. (And he did a better Sonic ripoff than Shadow.)

    I didn't like Sleet or Dingo either, it seemed unnecessary, but at least their voice acting wasn't as annoying as Scratch and Grounder's.

    That isn't to say the people voicing Scratch and Grounder did a bad job, they did a good job for something trying to be stupid, but that was why I personally hated them.

    This next bit was put into spoiler form because it's NSFW: <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>AoStH is good for 'adult' purposes though, since there's enough bondage to build a softcore porn site.</span> I hope that's a good enough warning.

    <!--quoteo(post=445924:date=Apr 21 2010, 07:07 PM:name=E-122-Psi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (E-122-Psi @ Apr 21 2010, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445924">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the reason people can stand AoSth being 'stupid' is because it's supposed to be for the most part. There's a difference between trying to goofy and being inadvertantly laughable. I won't deny it's corniness was over the top at points but it was often stuff on par with an average Golden Age cartoon (ever watched a Bob Clampett short or some Chuck Jones work like 'The Dover Boys'? They're often ridiculous beyond belief, and hilarious as a result). Also despite it's low budget, AoSth at least manipulated it and made things expressive and exagerrative (in comparison to a lot of DiC's often 'static' animation at the time).

    SatAm and Sonic X and the likes, while certainly having their high points, had an occasionally pretentious air to them, and tried to assume depth and wit they didn't have (and on occasion didn't belong in the Sonic franchise to begin with). Often the times they came off as 'dumb' was because of some bad attempt at drama or a screwed up plot point (not that they couldn't do AoSth humor at times, especially early on in both shows' run). AoSth was simplistic and as such had nothing to lose, and even then it had the occasional successful development (probably has the most endearing development between Sonic and Tails out of all enterpretations).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It definitely has the Sonic and Tails moments, but what I find difficult to enjoy about that is a bitter frustration about how the only cartoon to touch so deeply on one of the most important relationships in the series has to be interpreted by a slapstick children's cartoon instead of something deep and meaningful and more serious.

    But, that's just me. I've never been able to tolerate stupidity IRL or on cartoons even when I was in the age group they were meant for. The only reason cartoons were so much more intolerable than real children acting stupid was because I couldn't punch cartoon characters. :argh: DAMN YOU ANIMATED FRAMES AND YOUR INABILITY TO FEEL MY RAGE!!! (I think some of it, when toned-down like in SUG or SatAM is funny or enjoyable in it's own way, but to the extreme of a cartoon like AoStH is where my patience ends. Even the style infuriates me.)

    <!--quoteo(post=445884:date=Apr 21 2010, 06:20 PM:name=Blast Processing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blast Processing @ Apr 21 2010, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=445884">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Limited animation, tv cartoon budgets, less time spent drawing that extra finger, you know the drill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I know. But I think it's cheap and lazy. There are several 'tricks' to cartooning like that. Not the least of which is stock footage, but at least stock footage isn't plain-as-day incorrectness.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.