Dust Hill and Mystic Cave Discussion 2019

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Taylor, Nov 9, 2019.

  1. drx

    drx

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    None of the interviews are evidence that Dust Hill Zone is the desert level because they are incredibly tainted.

    If instead of asking "Did the desert zone have any other names?" you're going to ask someone "Hey, so Dust Hill Zone is totally the desert level????" ten thousand times, of course you're gonna get the answer you want.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading_question

    There is so much actual contemporary evidence that Dust Hill is Mystic Cave... and all evidence to the contrary is hearsay 10-20 years after the fact, influenced by fan theories.
     
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  2. Ultrared

    Ultrared

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    Fair enough. Her account may have been influenced by those mails.
     
  3. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

    TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

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    If Dust Hill was just Mystic Cave's early name, then the wiki page needs some serious rewriting...
     
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  4. Chainspike

    Chainspike

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    While this is certainly another point in favor of Dust Hill Zone being known as an early name (not so early at this point, however) for Mystic Cave Zone-that cannot be denied, this is definitely not an unflawed conclusion.

    From what we can determine, this is one of the first builds of Sonic 2 with the title cards implemented. For most of Sonic 2's development, title cards apparently were not an initial priority, as they were disabled in older builds, as well as still being based entirely on Sonic 1. In this build, the title cards are in a very preliminary state, currently only having text against a black background. VRAM issues also arise, with some of the text of a few of the title cards being partially overwritten by other graphical elements in certain levels. (Ex. Neo Green Hill, Death Egg). In the CENSOR prototype, which is dated between this build and September 18th (Beta 4), the title cards are nearing finalization with only a couple kinks to work out. The title cards in the CENSOR prototype are also using the final names, despite the fact that the level select appears identical between these two builds.

    Dust Hill was not the only level with a different title card. Emerald Hill and Aquatic Ruin are both titled "Green Hill" and "Neo Green Hill" respectively on both the title card and the level select. Given the state of the title cards in this build and the use of final title cards in the Censor prototype (3 days later at the most, assuming 14th to be accurate), despite the fact that the level select names remain unchanged, it therefore appears as if this was a result of a developer who was responsible for the title cards copying each name exactly as it was on the level select. Furthermore, it is unlikely that Green Hill, Neo Green Hill, and Dust Hill were all renamed within the span of 3 days. Indication of this stems from a related find: Hidden Palace's icon existing in the final version of the level select screen, first seen in Beta 7. This version of the level select was apparently in production before Hidden Palace's removal and would likely have already featured the final zone names (considering CENSOR's use of them), as well as explain the lack of attention for the level select in many of the prototypes before Beta 7.

    The outdated level select should not surprise anyone really. We've seen this in the first revision of Sonic 1 and Sonic 3. In both of these examples, the level select screen is leftover from an older build.

    Now I am aware that this does not necessarily disprove whether or not Mystic Cave is Dust Hill. This is rather, to show that this is alone is not concluding prove for the stated argument.
     
  5. Travelsonic

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    Indeed.

    IMO, if any wiki updates are made to say to the effect of the title card being more evidence in favor of DHZ=MCZ, I'll not object, as this would allow for the fact that it is evidence, without making the leap that I feel is needed to say it DEFINITIVELY proves anything outright... if they say it outright PROVES anything, I will have to object from an analytical standpoint - that there is still a lot about the development cycle we might not know, and there is a lot of decision making we'd probably need to mind-read (or interview - assuming time hasn't completely messed up recollection, which is dicey) more devs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  6. Overlord

    Overlord

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    I agree, 3 days is too short to decide on this - likely there were meetings, well away from any computing equipment, stretching over a sizeable period of time where they hammered out all the final zone names, as you'd expect for something of that magnitude: then they were all changed at the same time in the ROM itself, level select and title cards. There's no reason that they'd have needed to do it bit by bit, it makes perfect sense to all be done at once.

    Dust Hill IS Mystic Cave.
     
  7. Pengi

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    It's worth noting that in Yasuhara's world maps there were three "Hill" Zones in the same location, in different time periods. Green Hill Zone was in "Now", Dust Hill Zone was in "Now 2" (ruined Present) and Hill Top Zone was in "Ancient Time". The location doesn't really suggest a cave/mine, but it wouldn't have been a desert either, since Sand Shower Zone was on the other side of the island in the "Now" map.
     
  8. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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  9. Toasty

    Toasty

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    I never understood why people were so stuck on Dust Hill Zone being the elusive desert level. Perhaps Mystic Cave strayed away a bit from the original concept and the name was no longer fitting, we'll probably never know for sure. It makes about as much sense as Neo Green Hill being Aquatic Ruin or "Salad Plain" being Palm Tree Panic. The fanbase has been theorizing the meaning of the name "Dust Hill" for literally years, I'll never understand why.

    These releases remind me of that evening back in 2006 when drx revealed the Nick Arcade beta. What a discovery! This begs the question...why are there so many public prototype builds of Sonic 2, but virtually none of Sonic 1 or Sonic 3? I know we have a few very late pre-releases of Sonic 3, but...

    Also didn't we come to the conclusion a long time ago that they chose the levels they did for 2 player based on the fact there is no water, earthquakes, oil, single acts, or 3 acts in those levels? Like the system couldn't handle all that stuff on the screen in 2 player?
     
  10. T.Q.

    T.Q.

    The Sims 2, Tim Drake [Robin] Member
    I used to believe Dust Hill was the name of the desert zone because it made sense with dust = sand. Mystic Caves doesn't fulfill that aspect. Others thought dust = fine particles (that could be more than sand). And finding dust in a cavern was valid. It would have helped to learn that a concept location called "Sand Shower Zone" existed. Then many more people might have accepted the desert mock-up to be something other than Dust Hill earlier on. As well, English speakers take for granted that the developers would have known what to call the zones in English.

    For why prototypes of Sonic 2 are more plentiful, I think it has a lot to do with marketing. Giving magazines preview copies of the game, prototypes that were nearly complete, and disseminating the information to the public more than what would have been the case with Sonic 1 (because Sonic 1 was an unknown success). I don't know if Sonic 3 was given that same amount of attention as Sonic 2 had. Supposedly Sega set aside 1 million Pounds Sterling for marketing (Sega Force, July 1992) of Sonic 2.
     
  11. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    Some observations:
    -I think that keeping a "Dust Hill" page under "Scrapped levels" is just plain incorrect. Perhaps, if anything, it could be moved to a "Desert name speculation" page somewhere else? Not that I think that the wiki needs a page dedicated to explaining fan fiction, but maybe just to warn newcomers which might come across it.
    -Just modifying the old paragraphs made them sound kind of weird (Why was the speculation mixed with the "Leftovers" section to begin with, anyway?). I've isolated that stuff to its own section and rewritten it so that it just gets to the point.

    EDIT: "Desert Zone" and "Desert Level" still redirect to "Dust Hill Zone", oops.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  12. Asagoth

    Asagoth

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    I totally agree... in this article of French Magazine Joypad the following is said ... "Sonic will have the possibility of traveling through time by swallowing "warp-zone" sweets (pastille)... he wold be able to run upon a large dinossaur in the past and run through large tunnels in the future"...

    The dinossaur on hiltop zone:

    [​IMG]

    Dust Hill Zone (ruined present... no trees ... "turned into dust")

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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  13. Sid Starkiller

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    Yeah, I was kinda feeling drained after doing the Dust Hill page, so literally the only thing I changed from Sand Shower was the first sentence. Some other people had done a bit of cleanup before you got there.

    I see now why it's so hard to get people to edit the wiki: writing is way more tiring than you'd think. I can't imagine doing it for a living.
     
  14. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Wait, there's an actual article from back then which suggests that the future of Green Hill would involve tunnels? Wow, it always was in front of our noses, wasn't it.
     
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  15. SyntaxTsu

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    My apologies for those issues (It's not Sid's fault). For the former issue, I needed a place to keep the link to that page, but it never crossed my mind to simply have the link in the Sand Shower and Mystic Cave pages.
    For the latter, i'll be honest - that was a bit sloppy on my end. Sorry.
    EDIT: Clarified my wording. Sid and I aren't the same person, afterall.​
     
  16. Asagoth

    Asagoth

    Behold! The mighty, the flawless, salted cod eater Member
    I was not even refering to the tunnels... but to where that idea that Sonic would have to swallow sweets to travel in time came from... I translated what is written... and I agree with Pengi about this... "Green Hill Zone was in "Now", Dust Hill Zone was in "Now 2" (ruined Present) and Hill Top Zone was in "Ancient Time" ...
     
  17. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    No problem at all, the only actual problem I'm having is trying to rename all the old links so that they point to the Sand Shower page:
    Meh.
     
  18. 19XX

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    Wait, a mine like Dust Hill is composed of tunnels! A SERIES OF TUNNELS.
     
  19. Asagoth

    Asagoth

    Behold! The mighty, the flawless, salted cod eater Member
    Yep... but I was not even thinking on tunnels... just the sweets and the dinosaur...
     
  20. 19XX

    19XX

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    Well, you can start thinking about tunnels now.

    I can't imagine dinosaurs and candies in Sonic 2. It would be good to know from where those french writers got that info.
    We have most of the roms now, now we have to hunt more design documents and concepts.