Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Taylor, Nov 9, 2019.
I think you're missing some info here. These basically spell it out for us:
One thing I have noticed in the Classic trilogy is that any "Hill" Zone takes place above ground and outside. So I don't believe that MCZ was ever DHZ. Perhaps MCZ took the level slot of DHZ, but that's about it.
Yes but they don't actually spell it out for us so it can't be used as a reference for the name.
Also the map might have changed or there may have been several desert zones. Nobody knows this.
And that image certainly can't be used as a reference for that mock-up.
But I reiterate, many disagree with your points, neither side has a definitive answer, the wiki should reflect this by being very careful with its words and being neutral.
Black Squirrel summed up what I was trying to say a couple pages back.
As a facts-based community, we should only be dealing with concrete evidence available to us.
No matter how obvious some things might seem, it wouldn’t be accurate to include them until we have hard evidence i.e. an image of the desert stage with an accompanying name.
Also, I feel like insisting that the desert stage is called “Sand Shower Zone” is as equally misguided as insisting it’s called “Dust Hill Zone”.
We have about as much evidence either way, referring to a name just doesn’t seem like a fact based approach that the community strives for.
But you just removed every Sand Shower reference and the explanation from the Desert Zone section.
That's not being neutral, that's hiding information.
There was a reason, based on interviews, to believe the desert level was called “Dust Hill Zone”. Similarly, there is a reason, based on concept art, to believe that the desert level was called “Sand Shower Zone”.
That should at least be mentioned.
Brenda's final say on the subject was that she had never called the level "Dust Hill", though:
Well, the current Mystic Cave page has three entire paragraphs of "don't believe what you see" speculation sandwiched in the middle of it:
For whatever my 2 cents are worth: MCZ should be acknowledged as one point being DHZ considering the number of prototypes that refer to it as such.
The Desert Zone should get its own article titled "Desert Zone", with a section on name controversy. Mention DHZ and cite the two interviews (even if tainted), and then mention Sand Shower Zone and the number of concrete evidence we have connecting the two. "Desert Zone" is fitting as being the actual title because it seems as if the developers just called it "desert level" regardless of what the names say on the Yasuhara map, and since it likely never got programmed in it's not like it really has a "true" name anyway. I would do this myself but I don't wanna directly contribute to the editing war :P
Well, if we are being neutral, then Genocide City is not Cyber City for the exact same reasons: we don't have any concept art with a "Genocide City" name written on it. The only evidence of this link between the 2 names is an interview...
Ok, we have to be neutral I agree fully on this. But we have hard evidences enough other than a concept art to state that the desert level is Sand Shower zone. Unlike Dust Hill zone, the map and the concepts are pretty clear this time:
Sand, a large area of sand. There is only one in the "Now" map clearly distinguishable.
The name "Sand Shower" associated to that area. No way to confuse anything. This is not named "Dust Shower".
The Banper concept that makes the link to the desert level as described by ICEknight.
The only thing that could state otherwise is the "Now 2" map featuring a "Rock World" in the middle of a desert area (filled with rocks). If anything, this even makes the connection between the desert level and "Rock World" / "Sand Shower" more obvious.
At least, even if we are not 100% sure of it, it should be mentioned somewhere.
I have a hard time believing that an enemy design would be made before something as basic as level troupes were decided on. The fact that the banper enemy even mentions the level troupes it was to appear on is one thing, but it also states the time periods as well.
After the time travel was scrapped? Sure, things were cut and moved around. It would be questionable. But this enemy document is clearly dated during a period before it was cut, and after troupes and time periods were decided on.
There is a neutrality question in the sense that yes, Mystic Cave talks about Dust Hill Zone, and nothing talks about Sand Shower (the original plan was to not mention either when discussing the desert zone, hence "neutral"). I've slightly amended that - there is a potential connection, and sand is certainly found in deserts.
I really don't want to definitively say there was only ever one desert zone, and that that mock-up represents the only desert zone that ever existed. The sand you find near the sea is different to the sand you find in Monument Valley - I think things evolved, the facts are not clear, there are too many variables, can I get back to taking screenshots now
I completely understand the point you are making, but there is a piece of concept art that links the two names together (sorry big image):
sidenote, rock -> eroding over time -> sand, which is a nice touch. (it is also why Rock is weak to Ground in Pokemon)
RE: there's no proof that Sand Shower Zone was the name of the desert level
ICEknight's post above covers the gist of it, but something he missed, which people often miss, and that I consider the smoking gun is the following picture (which Retro doesn't seem to have in a resolution where you can still make out the katakana):
These "timelines" list all the stages in the game by short code names, going left to right, in a manner very close to how they're connected by arrows in the island maps. Let's focus on the Present, Past and Ruined Present lines; they list the following stages:
グリーン オーシャン ウッド サンド メトロポリス
トロピカルサン ブルーオーシャン ヒルトップ
ロック オイル ダスト デスエッグ
which are direct katakana transcriptions of the following English words:
Green, Ocean, Wood, Sand, Metropolis
Tropical Sun, Blue Ocean, Hill Top
Rock, Oil, Dust, Death Egg
Okay, let's match these up with the island maps and see how we did:
Green Hill Zone, Woods Zone, Sand Shower Zone, Metropolis Zone.
Tropical Plant Zone, Hill Top Zone, Blue Lake Zone, Rock World Zone.
Rock World Zone, Oil Ocean Zone, Dust Hill Zone.
Apart from the switcheroo between Hill Top and Blue Lake, a resounding success. One might even surmise that travelling back to the present would happen partway through Rock World Zone considering how it's listed in both the Past and Ruined Present maps.
We can also see that Rock World Zone shares a location on the island with Sand Shower Zone, but in different timelines. Also, the code name for Rock Zone is ロック, which is the English word ROCK transcribed into katakana.
Ready to have your minds blown?
砂漠 ZONE (sabaku zone, literally desert zone)
砂漠 ZONE is the present version of ROCK ZONE, which is the code name for Rock World Zone, which is in the past island map at the exact same location Sand Shower Zone is in the present island map. Deserts are also uh, known to contain large amounts of sand.
What does it say to the left of each list of zones? I'm guessing it's a description of the time zone, since the third one is "__ 2". I'm curious what terminology they used for the "Medieval" and "Ancient" times in Japanese. It also looks to explain Eggman's actions at the end of each time period?
砂漠 (desert) zone is listed as taking place in 現代 (present time/day). Not the past or ruined present/present 2. According to the list you posted:
There's only one Rock World Zone that Sonic would travel through, not two separate levels with the same name.
This is speculation on my part, but I believe this was the reason the level is listed twice on the map. The past map ends on Rock World rather then the "warp point" and continues with Rock World on the ruined map.
Oof, that was a typo on my end. Fixed.
I can't read the kanji because the strokes are tiny and all bunched together and also because I can't really read kanji lol
Here's the full slide, it seems like "Medieval" is used interchangeably with "ancient time". "Olympus" is actually called a shrine during the presentation and has a full name of "Hidden Shrine" at the end here. Possible early names for Hidden Palace. Video is here:
Sonic stuff starts around the 5:20 mark.
I do find it funny though that Dust Hill is considered too inappropriate of a name to have been considered for a cave level, yet the name Hidden Palace somehow isn't.
EDIT: Something to note that I haven't seen documented anywhere, is Yasuhara says these maps were for a HUB world/level select that worked just like the ones in Super Mario Bros. 3
Now that is intriguing. Sad we never saw those until Sonic Adventure 2 (I think).
Separate names with a comma.