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Does Mania shake up the formula enough?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Laura, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. /dev/sr0


    Maybe, but at the same time Sonic Forces seems like a possible clusterfuck because it's keeping the Generations "Modern" and "Classic" formulas while adding another unrelated one.

    That's a great idea! If Sonic isn't gonna have it, at least give it to Amy, who made her debut in the same game as the peelout.
  2. 360


    Light Vision Overdrive Oldbie
    United Kingdom
    Sonic Neon
    From what I've read and recall, Laura has been super positive and warm towards Sonic Mania overall. Most of her posts in the Sonic Mania megathread are of optimism and excitement, unless she's changed tact recently since I haven't followed it as intently as of late. Sonic Forces on the other hand, yeah she's kind of trashed that over and over again - but in my opinion, deservedly so. That game's a clusterfuck. I think she posts good and interesting threads. I like most of her posts and thread ideas, including this one.

    It's a good idea for a thread and sparks interesting discussion. She's a Sonic super fan, just like the rest of us.
  3. Artemis Davar

    Artemis Davar

    Sonic Mania is a return to form, like New Super Mario Bros.
  4. Laura


    Brightened Eyes Member
    Not sure where this hostility came from :v: .

    I've been saying how amazing Mania has been ever since it came out and I literally check twitter, youtube etc for Mania news every single day xD . I think Mania's really good for the franchise, not sure where you get the idea that I don't like it from. In fact, I've been a huge fan of Christian Whitehead in particular and have constantly banged on about how he should be directing the franchise:

    I even argued with people on SSMB via a phantom account why it was a good idea, because I actually got a fair bit of pushback from people who thought he was only good for remasters :v:/>

    And yeah, there have been aspects of the game I haven't been to keen on, like Tails face when he carries Sonic and the frequent tile errors in the numerous preview footage. I only even notice these miniscule things because I comb over every single detail of the game. But yeah, I think they aren't great and hope they are improved in the final product. You can criticise games that you like.

    As for this particular thread itself, it comes more from Palas (a forum user who is a good friend of mine) than myself. But I can see where he's coming from on this particular topic. So I thought it would be interesting to discuss because I imagine this sub-series is probably going to continue.

    It's okay though KingOfBunnies, I'm not mad at you, I extend my hand of friendship to you :v: . Let's be pals and put this behind us.

    As for Forces, I have very low expectations, but I loved Generations a lot and so I do hope it is at least good. My main fear is that it'll be a knock-off Generations rather than building upon what made that game great. I also like the idea of Shadow and Chaos as villains and most people seem not to be very happy with that.

    I'd say on balance, I'm probably more optimistic about Forces than a lot of the hardcore fans :v:
  5. I feel that if you cram too much innovation into the formula, then what'll be left for the sequels? :P I guess it's not best to put too many eggs in one basket.

    What I do want to see is more innovation with the controller. Like on a standard 3-button, you can have each button to jump, while a second press can give you a newer ability to that particular button. For example, a second press on A will give you a drop dash, a second press on B will give you a homing attack, and a second press on C will give an instashield or something along those lines.
  6. ICEknight


    Researcher Researcher
    That's like the opposite way of thinking to what made the original controls simple and intuitive. I'd rather let the player choose between one mode or the other.

    Which just reminded me that the way to make Tails grab Sonic in the remakes is probably not the most intuitive one, either...
  7. Stimil Rc.

    Stimil Rc.

    Why not do both? I don't want a homing attack, but being able to simultaneously have access to both the Drop Dash and Insta Shield sounds wonderful. I'd also like to be able to use these abilities without transforming into the super form.

    That reminds me, I really hope it's possible to revert back to base form like in Sonic 3 Complete and Sonic 4: Episode II and that it's possible to disable the super theme if it's a short, repetitive loop again.
  8. Jendt


    I've been playing S3C lately and thinking about how this might play out if it was in Mania. I still think its implemented simply enough to not ruin the simplistic nature of the control scheme; all you have to do is press a different jump button than you did when you actually jumped to initiate the form change. You can still use any button you want to jump, which is great.

    What worries me is that the ability to revert your super form is extremely broken. Not that Super Sonic itself isn't broken... But I always thought it was neat that, even though you are super, you still have to think economically about your rings and there are some bosses/minibosses in the series that can only be damaged by indirect means, and being super for these fights would be very risky if you encounter them with a low ring count! Having the ability to revert your form kind of negates these challenges.

    If this ability does come to Mania, I'm hoping it's at least an option for the player to turn on and off. Honestly, I love the menus Taxman puts in his ports and I hope Mania gets a big one with a lot of options for us to mess around with.
  9. Tiller


    HDK & World Runner
    Personally I would have liked to see Knuckles or Tails shaken up in some way. Sonic's got the drop dash now which changes the game both for normal casual play and speedrunning. Tails and Knuckles are carbon copies from the older games for better and worse. Just a small tweak here or there would do.

    I liked how one of the Advance games had Knuckles Glide turn into a roll when you hit the ground so you won't skid to a complete halt. A small change like that wouldn't harm much. I would also have liked it if you could cancel Knuckle's landing animation when letting go of the glide, or someway to make him climb a little faster. I don't have anything to really think of for Tails though.
  10. Okamikurainya


    Somewhere in Africa
    Sonic: Time Attacked - MAX
    In the fangame I'm working on the Dropdash is linked to holding down when pressing jump in the air while the insta-shield/shield-abilities is the default, this also keeps the dropdash available when you have a shield which also prevents speedruns from becoming "avoid-the-shield-box-athons".

    I love the Drop Dash's concept in Mania but everything I've seen of it's execution has been really poor relative to a lot of the other stuff. It doesn't seem intuitive enough, this being proven by how little screen time it gets in any Sonic Mania gameplay video. I want to bet that there will be some non-hardcore fans out there who will forget it even exists through most of the game if they knew at all.

    Faster glide with fireshield with small AOE to kill enemies...
    Bounce off walls with bubbleshield with a timed button tap...
    Emit enemy damaging sparks when hitting a wall with lightning shield?
  11. ICEknight


    Researcher Researcher
    That does sound more intuitive, since it's basically an airborne Spindash charge.
  12. winterhell


    Mania is pissing on 4's parade
  13. Sirius-R


    basement cave under a rock
    whatever 3AngleTeam/3Angleware is up to atm (currently dead)
    I'm probably going to piss of the entirety of this forum by posting this, but meh. I wanted to get this off my chest for so long.

    There's one thing in Mania that kills any will to buy it in me besides recycled zones. It looks quite outdated.
    Now stop right there and let me explain. No, I have nothing against how Mania is going to play. I enjoyed the gameplay of classic Mega Drive titles as much as many of you did, and I absolutely look forward to this gameplay style to be resurrected (even though I've got worse in them with time). To be quite honest, I already like it for having only one Sonic. But I sincerely question the choice of graphics. Sure, I'm perfectly aware that Sonic's Mega Drive graphics were astonishing for its time. But here comes the issue with it - it's 2017 already. Modern hardware is now capable of so much more than just rehashed Mega Drive graphics.
    Personally, I would really love it to go with S2HD-tier graphics, which look very faithful to Mega Drive games but at the same time don't give an impression of coming straight from 90's. Another nice choice would be utilizing the style of animated cutscenes, which would allow smooth transitions between cutscenes and gameplay, which I'd say would be a very nice gimmick. One more option would be going with 3D graphics and 2,5D gameplay like in Klonoa games, but yeah, that may be too radical for a game like Mania.

    I'm pretty sure that the choice of Mega Drive era-like graphics has been dictated by Taxman's team's technical and financial limitations, as well as time constraints, but I'm more worried about how future Sonic titles may end up. I don't want them to degrade to pseudo-retro indie-tier games of the nostalgia bandwagon only. Yes, yes, yes, I'm fully aware that Taxman and Co are a team of indie game developers. But come on, they're under Sega's wing already. It would be ridiculous if it won't offer even more assistance and won't let Taxman's team step up their game if Mania sells well (which it will). Which is why I don't mind Mania's style itself as much as I mind its possible impact on the franchise's future - the former at least has rather reasonable reasons to be, even though I still think it could be better than this.

    I'm not sure whether to post this rant as it is, as my rants are known for bad choices of words and ridiculous contradictions, but I can't see a way to refine it better than it is now, so I'll still post it as it is.
    Feel free to throw anything you want at me - I'm prepared for consequences.
  14. SuperSnoopy


    I like Sonic Advance Member
    Lyon, France
    Slice of life visual novel, coming soon...?
    How dare you :argh:
    On a more serious note, I see were you're coming from, but it should be noted that the limitations the developers gave themselves are more akin to the Saturn than the Megadrive. The game has a vibrant color palette, beautiful and fluid animations, and a CD-quality soundtrack.
    It's a step forward in presentation compared to sonic 3&K, and that's what matter to me. (And that's one of the reason I don't like Mega Man 9 and 10).

    Sure, it's not pushing the hardware to it's limit, but they're not lazily copy-and-pasting assets from the MD games ether. They mentioned in a E3 interview that they take all the asset from the levels and remake them from scratch. And the new zones look fantastic IMO.

    (Also, and I know it's just opinion at this point, but I'd like to mention that I don't really think Sonic 2 HD look all that great. Sure, the team put phenomenal effort into it, but, for me, it just look like a newground flash game. I definitely think sonic mania looks better.)
  15. Beltway


    The most grateful Sonic fan of all time this week Member
    Sega of Darkest Peru
    Artwork and classes
    I will say that the retraux graphics approach when it was first revealed was also a personal nitpick of mine too, and that I was hoping for more modern production values (not helped by some of the derogatory "lol ROMhack / fangame" comments that have been made by people not sold or uninterested in the game when it was first revealed). I certainly do agree that I don't want future 2D Sonic games to be restricted towards retro graphics either. But I've made my peace with Mania in particular for the following reasons:

    1. As SuperSnoopy explained, it's quite clear that the development team aren't just going straight for MD-era graphics--the game has a larger color palette (similar to Knuckles Chaotix on the Sega 32X add-on) and includes rudimentary 3D graphics (like the wireframe Special Stage rings as well as the Sonic CD-like Special Stages from the Mega CD) that the Mega Drive wouldn't be able to do. They've always said they were going for more of a Saturn-era approach in terms of presentation.
    2. This is the first game in years that's actually interested in restoring the Genesis gameplay. Which for me is quite a bit more important than the graphical style the developers are deciding to roll with. If they get the gameplay right, then I'd say I'm pretty flexible with whatever visuals the developers choose to do.
    3. The retraux approach does actually give Mania some novelty in its presentation compared to recent 2D Sonic titles. We haven't actually had a 2D Sonic in general (let alone a Sonic game overall) that game that actually tries to revive an older era of graphics, or a 2D Sonic game that is primarily a sprite-based game since Sonic 4: Episode I/Colors DS. Which makes the retraux approach something of a breath of fresh air.
    4. Depending on how Mania reviews and sells, it could pave the way towards a new 2D Genesis Sonic game that does have the graphical chops of today's games, whether it be the 2.5D approach (Generations, Retro's Donkey Kong Country games), HD sprites (Rayman Origins, Wonder Boy: The Dragon's Trap remake), or a mix of both (Rayman Legends, DuckTales Remastered). So IMO, support Mania to help ensure that hypothetical modern-looking 2D Genesis Sonic game becomes a reality.

    That would imply Sonic 4 was a parade in the first place. It was a floor show that had a sign claiming it was a parade.
  16. winterhell


    Sonic 4 is nothing like the classic Sonics.
    Sonic Lost World is a Super Mario Galaxy clone.
    Sonic Generations has too many Sonics.
    Sonic Boom has too much water.
    Sonic '06.... its no use even talking about it.
    Sonic Fan Remix has cluttered visuals.
    Sonic 3 HD is gradient happy.
    Sonic 2 HD looks like a Flash game.
    Sonic Utopia has only 1 level.
    Freedom Planet is a Sonic romhack.
    Sonic Mania looks like a 25 year old game.
    Sonic AXSX is not coming out anytime soon.
    And then the internet says Sonic was never good to begin with.

    tl.dr. You can't please anybody.
  17. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

    Virginia, USA
    Paying off student loans
    Is that still a thing? I was under the impression that it was cancelled years ago.
  18. Stimil Rc.

    Stimil Rc.

    To be honest, this is how I originally thought the Drop Dash was going to be implemented. When I saw that we were losing the Insta Shield for the Drop Dash, I was baffled to the point of attempting to rationalize its exclusion as the execution of the two moves somehow conflicting with one another.

    If it ever becomes mandatory to progress, it's probably gonna be a repeat of the Carnival Night Zone Barrel and Night Carnival Zone (which apparently requires the player to use a trick to avoid falling into a pit).
  19. winterhell


    There was some progress after the tech demo, but it hasn't been worked on in years. Postponed indefinitely until an adequate artist steps in.
  20. Jendt


    The retro style graphics in Mania don't bother me.

    It's a good marketing decision. The games visuals instantly portray what the product is: a continuation of the classic titles. Obviously, Sonic 4 established its connection to the older games by its title, but Mania couldn't go that route, so it was important for the game to look the part in order for the game to be easily understood by people who may have not played a game since the classics.

    The Retro Engine, and its use in the Sonic franchise, has become associated with the classic art style. Sega has noticed the positive response to the rerelease of Sonic CD and the mobile ports, and surely wants to make sure that the connection between these ports and this new original game is made by the consumer, to essentially build consumer trust with the Retro Engine "brand."

    I'd also like bring up one other thing: Self-imposed restrictions can sometimes benefit an artistic product. As an example, think about special effects in films. With CGI, basically anything can be rendered on screen, and so it's generally viewed as less artistically impressive. Then, you go back to an older film that used a practical effect, and the community begins to appreciate these more restrictive, difficult methods for delivering a visual. Nowadays, some films use practical effects simply because they're more impressive and popular!

    Restricting yourself to a 16/32 bit art style and sprites is hard, and gives you less creative room. Despite that... look at the game they created. Its damn beautiful to be sure. Can't you be impressed with that?

    tl;dr the visuals in Mania don't represent a laziness or a resentment to develop modern visuals, but rather, a self-imposed restriction attempting to recreate a branded 16 bit style, which, I would argue, resulted in a more creative presentation.