Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Nicky Ali, Oct 11, 2019.
@Rudie Radio Waves I mean I was 11, I was dumb
I haven't said anything about cutscenes, and it has enough glitches and design flaws to throw me off, plus I still don't enjoy boost gameplay except on Generations, maybe because it's a lot less relevant there. Since I was repeating things I've said before, I'll say again I hated less the nighttime levels than the daytime ones in Unleashed, and I at least had the patience to finish it and try to get some of its collectibles. The Adventure parts of Colours I was talking about were 3D non-boost sections and such. I remember Asteroid Coaster as a watered down level from SA2 at times, for example.
We kinda got that, with Sonic Advance 2 and Sonic Rush, except then the devs also decided that difficulty in later levels meant enemies placed right in the middle of the path and bottomless pits you'd fall into if you missed a single jump. Even was developed by a different dev than the main games, and it didn't really stick, or work long-term.
I didn't say they weren't powerups, I said they weren't the same concept of powerups; and your response --noting the differences they have from how the shields were handled in Sonic 3-- honestly reaffirms this. As fun as the Wisps can be, they're a different type of fun than what the shields provided. I'll give you that they're more integrated into the level design than how the shields in Sonic 3 were implemented, but I don't think that alone makes them inherently evolved from the shields.
It is still a pity because during this era everyone wanted movie-quality graphics. Unleashed came close, but Colours didn't leave much room for improvement, yada yada yada, I thought they did fairly well. That's what I'm trying to say.
To echo the sentiments of a few people here: I'd love to see a well-handled remake or re-imagining of the original Sonic Adventure, but I wouldn't trust current SEGA/"Sonic Team" to make it. I think SA1's gameplay and ideas absolutely deserve another chance to shine and be improved on, and I'd especially love to see it done without gutting half the gameplay styles as some have (understandably) suggested. I reasonably enjoyed the gameplay variety (especially since it wasn't a forced rotation with two styles being downgraded, a la SA2), and the idea of the cutscenes and dialogue playing out a bit differently depending on whose story you were going through was a fun one, so it'd be nice if those things could be kept in a new version of Adventure.
And since I feel like tossing in my own two cents on the last decade of (mainline) Sonic games...
Unleashed: Even if it had some missteps, I respect what it tried to do and enjoyed the 3D gameplay style it introduced. I don't think any game since has felt as ambitious. (I also still haven't gotten to play the whole thing, but I look forward to the day that I can.)
Colors: It was a breath of fresh air at the time, but it hasn't aged that well. It's still a decent game but the platforming doesn't necessarily have that specific "Sonic" appeal, and the writing style introduced has since gotten a bit tiresome. (It also brought back unlockable Super Sonic for regular levels, which was long overdue.)
Generations: This one's probably best or at least most consistently good game in this stretch of Sonic's history. Both gameplay styles are done well, as is the level design, and the story was lean but fine. Plus, it was fun seeing Modern and Classic interpretations of memorable levels and bosses from the series. (Not to mention the PC release meant we got a decent modding community out of it.)
Lost World: Lost World tried to change things up (...for some reason) and the result was some awkward gameplay (I like the parkour idea, but not the execution) and what I'd consider a long list of design issues. The story was serviceable and Colors-like in tone, and had some fun moments (who could forget Eggman's threats of eating hearts and strangling Zeti?). I wish SEGA would move on from Zavok, Wisps, and Nega-Wisp Armor's attack patterns, though.
Forces: Forces was a downgrade from Generations in pretty much every conceivable way, and it's probably the Sonic game I hold the most contempt for. The gameplay is worse, the level design is worse, the story is told poorly and tonally all over the place, the Avatar is a self-insert written like a self-insert, and we waited four years for it (six if you don't count Lost World). It's not the worst Sonic game, but it feels like the one that has the least business being as bad as it is, and that's what makes it so disappointing.
Do I think that a Sonic Adventure remake is a good idea? With current Sonic Team, a pretty firm no.
However, do I expect a Sonic Adventure remake to actually happen? Quite a bit, yeah.
While too many Sonic games have come along with seriously head-scratching ideas/issues/oversights, at the same time, I believe that those making significant management and game development decisions (regarding the subpar 3D. Sonic games over the years) are not completely out of touch with everything. The large financial and general reception success (some criticisms aside) of Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy and Spyro Reignited Trilogy ought to be very hard for SEGA to ignore. Couple that with nostalgia and remakes in general being all the rage right now, I wouldn't be surprised if SEGA's considerations for Sonic game remakes in general have changed substantially from years prior.
Even if they made a Sonic Adventure remake while butchering level design and messing up controls, and in general not working on things well enough, it would still probably sell at least a reasonably large quantity. Very sad to say, SEGA knows that more-or-less anything with Sonic text and/or character(s) on it will sell, regardless of effort and quality. Plus, given the aforementioned nostalgia/remake boom right now, that would likely contribute to sales even more. It honestly sucks that I feel like SEGA treats the Sonic I.P. this way, and I wish that I could hand-on-heart say that I have more confidence in SEGA...
... Alas, this is how it seems to be. In short, if SEGA recognises serious potential for significant monetary gain by hopping on the nostalgia/remake hype train, they might just go for it in the form of a Sonic Adventure remake, even if the product isn't up to scratch. In an interview with Iizuka some months ago, his more recent mention of a Sonic Adventure remake sounded less negative, as if there's a notably greater possibility of it becoming a reality, so who knows?
A Sonic Adventure remake if done right would be the single greatest shot in the arm the series could ever get.
Despite it's age and shortcomings it's still one of the most fun, charming and replayable games I've ever touched; and I think if it were done justice it'd make people realize that 3D Sonic as a concept was never the problem as much as attempting to make a demanding game like Sonic (and a wildly ambitious one, too) in 3D game dev's infancy.
That said, I don't trust the most recent version of Sonic Team to do that right. Maybe Iizuka's apparent new Sonic group he's making in the states might be good, but I think it's way too early to tell on that...
Do I think a Sonic Adventure remake is a good idea? Mostly No. People only really liked half of it.
Do I think a Sonic Adventure remake will happen? Yes. Ideally, this would be a complete reworking of the playable characters.
Sonic would stay mostly the same as Generations/Forces.
Tails instead of racing Sonic (Apart from the final obvs) would be more focused on puzzles/gimmicks that they tried to push before (just not the dummy ring bomb).
Knuckles would have a more of a beginning and end to his stages. He wouldn't start in the area of the Emerald Shards and maybe have an event that would happen where Knuckles would have to escape after finding them all.
Gamma would have a close range attack, maybe make his wheel mode activate with a button push.
Amy. Shit. Her levels need complete rejigging. Work it more like she would be chased through a level, then there is a moment where she has to hide in a location for a set period of time and Zero is searching for her and in this moment if shes caught that would be a life lost. It would build up to the Hot Shelter colour puzzle where you would try and solve that under that condition. The area wouldn't be as open as it is.
Big. Oh no. Just turn him into Mario. It would be funny. I really don't know. Maybe make a photography game on top of the fishing. Because the whole point of Big was to be slow and look at the pretty environments.
Super Sonic. There is an End of the World style level where Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Big search through a ruined Station Square for the Chaos Emeralds. Then Super Sonic Vs Perfect Chaos Happens. Maybe have a Sonic V Perfect Chaos battle before that?
There does need to be an epilogue of the story. I'd pick Rouge for this. Her motivation for this is that she works for GUN, GUN suspects Sonic is more involved with the Perfect Chaos incident than he lets on. You would play through ruined versions certain levels. EG: Sky Deck - but its under water. Speed Highway with water/electric moments. Stuff like that. Conclusion would be the lead in to Sonic Adventure 2. Sonic is apprehended by GUN because they have their suspicions confirmed by Shadow's actions and Rouge stealing the Master Emerald after Red Mountain and Vs Knuckles boss.
Everyone needs more levels. Especially Knuckles. Maybe try and add more cute touches to levels like Sonic taking a shower in Casinopolis. Casinopolis needs a complete overhaul as well really. Story needs beefing up. Definitely Knuckles needs more time in the past.
Some more bosses would be nice. Make Chaos more of the threat. Adventure fields need more moments. Like imagine Mission mode from SA:DXDC but actually integrated into the fields. Something something Chao. Maybe you would only play as Cream in this bit? I dunno. But maybe make it feel more restrictive. Like you'd be able to tell off a chao instead of just hitting them. Ways to increase intelligence and luck that isn't Chao Adventure.
So in short. I want the next Sonic game to be a new game. And be good. Then maybe Adventure remake. But if Adventure remake is happening next then I hope it's completely reworked and redesigned. Less bottomless pits and more exploration and stuff. Even if everything doesn't quite feel like a Sonic game then its ok because at least it's fun.
I think a Sonic Adventure remake would be really fun if they knew what they were doing and all. They should add more features and extras into it somehow or someway. I'm not sure. I'm not against the idea but then again, shouldn't we focus on new games?
EDIT: they better get rid of Big...
A Sonic Adventure remake is pointless, even if you redesigned the game to work out its flaws, it's just so much more effort than it's worth.
Now, a 2D remake would be interesting, because at that point it's a new take on the game rather than trying what it already did.
Meaning a 2D remake of Adventure?
...isn't that basically Sonic Advance 1?
Sonic Adventure to me is one of those games where I agree that it's technically not a good game, but I love it all the same. The reason I keep playing it despite all of the flaws, glitches, and overall jankiness is because of its soul, its decidedly Dreamcast flavor, which is the one thing that I don't think a remake would be able to retain unless they brought in the staff who worked on the original game and were willing to allow creative liberties with the designs of the locations and characters instead of making them "on model" with more recent Sonic titles. Spyro Reignited for the most part did a good job with this and it probably helps that Toys For Bob sought consultation from Insomniac throughout development.
I guess what I mean to say is that my ideal version of a remake would be primarily aesthetic, with the most significant gameplay difference being a more stable physics engine and camera system and not much else. Normally I wouldn't think that's worth it, but the original game has been scrambled so much by porting that I think it deserves another chance to shine, and understandably not every new player is going to go through the process of buying a Dreamcast or buying the PC version and then installing mods to revert it to the Dreamcast version.
If they do change anything in a hypothetical remake...
- Allow any character to play in any stage without modding, as long as their adventure is 100% complete.
- Add Chao Karate from SA2.
- I think keeping Big would be fine if they made the fishing minigame more interesting than "hold button and occasionally let go if the line is too stressed". Heck, take a page from the actual fishing games present on the Dreamcast. Something else they could do is confine fishing to the Adventure Fields and award rings based on the weight of your catch, either for Big himself or by allowing other characters to talk to/team up with him if he's no longer playable.
A quick rewrite that highlights the story's nuances (can you honestly imagine the character select screen without Big the Cat?) would be nice, too.
SA1 with maxed out stats.
I'd hope they do something crazy awesome with Big's gameplay, like having him on a jet ski or wakeboard, catching fish at high speed with some sort of hand held net. Give him a homing attack that catches badniks or something. No, it doesn't have to make sense for me, if it's fun. Big is already an absurd meme of a character; they should play that up rather than pretend he doesn't exist.
If the game is ever remade I hope they stick to the visual theme for each stage, they can rebuild the act however they want but they need to leave how it looks at a design point the same.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing it, but I think at this point, the "adventure" brand is kind stained enough that it's probably not a great idea. Also, are we cutting out all the fat and just leaving the really good parts of the game (Sonic's stages), or are we remaking the whole thing? Because honestly, I feel like some characters (Amy, Big) exist purely because ST couldn't make enough levels to pad out Tails/Knuckles adventures and make the game feel like it was worth it. I feel Sonic Adventure would feel way less fluff if it was just Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles.
Even if Amy only existed as padding and as a flat character to prop up Sonic, this game was significant for her. It was the first time she was fully playable in a mainline Sonic game (or any female character for that matter), and it introduced her modern design and personality quirks. Although I agree that the game would have felt more polished if they only focusd on the original triple threat, I feel like revoking Amy's playable status in a remake would be erasing a pretty notable milestone (which is why I'm similarly skeptical about removing Big, given that this was his debut).
Adding to this, I really hope that they'd stay faithful to the original Dreamcast release for a vast majority of aesthetic direction. Later releases and Sonic Adventure DX changed and butchered various visual designs.
In a Sonic Adventure remake, if they insist on sticking very close to the source material in terms of gameplay and level design, I'd argue for splitting playable characters into 2 groups.
I'd place Sonic, Tails and Knuckles in Core Adventure, and Amy, Big and Gamma in Extra Adventure. I'd make Core Adventure completion mandatory for the Super Sonic final bosses and ending, and leave Extra Adventure totally optional.
That way, you can divide the best-received and mixed-reception-received into 2 distinct groups, with the latter no longer being required to unlock the true ending, due to many people not exactly loving their levels and gameplay styles. At the same time, this preserves the full roster of the original game.
I'd argue that Amy's game is closer to the traditional Sonic platforming action than Knuckles' treasure hunting levels are. They could do without the tedious colour block placing "puzzles" though.
In an ideal remake, I'd want the non-Sonic characters to have more action stages to go through.
Separate names with a comma.