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Clearing a Misconception About Sonic Forces Dev Team

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Swiftbix, Jun 18, 2021.

After What You've Read, Do You Think Sonic Team Can Handle the Next Sonic Game?

  1. Yeah!

    17.6%
  2. I'm Still a Bit Skeptical...

    57.4%
  3. No Way!

    25.0%
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  1. Swiftbix

    Swiftbix

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    Before I respond to you, Aerosol, I’ll just say this: this thread was created first and foremost to be INFORMATIVE, not to spark any arguments.
    How? Just how? That is far from what I was trying to do. It’s quite disappointing and frankly insulting that you two are making that assumption. All I wanted to do was have a civil conversation with you and others about what your opinion was for what Sonic Team could do to win back your trust. And guess what?
    You answered my question. That was all I wanted to know. From there we could discuss those aspects that you laid out. That’s all I was trying to do.
    I wasn’t referring to Sonic Team here. I was referring to why almost all of your posts here were complaining about why I made this thread. I didn’t mean any harm, I only wanted to tackle a point of contention with research to back it up. I worked hard making that first post, and to see the first thing you said in the thread be this:
    was very disappointing.
    You’re right. It’s not a defense, and I never said that. Look, I have no ill will towards you or the other mod, but please stop assuming things. You don’t know me. I’d genuinely love to have a civil discussion with you guys, if only you’d allow for it.
     
  2. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    Dude, you may wanna just cut your losses here. But as for my actual opinion on the subject at hand:

    You can have all the talent and passion in the world and still direct it in all the wrong ways. Sonic Team have not been regularly making good use of their talent for almost 2 decades. To make it worse, the 2 bright spots of the last 5 years were not made by Sonic Team. My cynicism is absolutely warranted. Fact of the matter is: Sonic games used to be an unquestioned day 1 purchase for me and now they're not. Just because they contributed to my childhood does not mean I owe them anything. If they want my trust, they need a string of unquestionably good games. Not "alright but with some big issues", not "good but only if you ignore 2/3 of the game". I mean truly, undisputedly good.
     
  3. Swiftbix

    Swiftbix

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    What would be considered a good Sonic game to you?
     
  4. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    You named this thread "In Defense of Sonic Team". If you didn't intend for everything you say in this thread to come across as a defense of Sonic Team, maybe you shouldn't have titled it that?

    Further, no-one is making an assumption about your intent, but observations about how exactly you're coming across. You're not the first person to frame your boundless optimism this way and it runs wearily close to sea lioning.

    The question "what could a game developer do win back your trust that they can make good games" isn't a deep question. They're a game developer. Make good games. That's it. What more is there to discuss? "What makes a good Sonic game"? We've had that discussion here dozens of times already, and we're not about to have it again.

    If you intend for this thread to be a "what makes a good Sonic game" thread it's gonna get locked.
     
  5. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    I've never heard this expression before. Explain please?
     
  6. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
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  7. Swiftbix

    Swiftbix

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    Trolling is far from my intent. My defense for Sonic Team is right here.
    I don’t know what else to say besides that. I apologize if my wording made you feel that way, but again, I meant no harm.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  8. Fadaway

    Fadaway

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    Can they handle it? Sure. I mean, of course they can. They've handled many Sonic games so far. Will it be good is another question entirely. They have the talent to make a good game. Sometimes I question if what they think the fans want is actually what the fans want, but logically, yes they can make a good game. What they believe to be a good game and what I believe to be a good game are perhaps worlds apart. But, they have made some really good games and still can.
     
  9. LucasMadword

    LucasMadword

    LucasSaturn Member
    The real question is, why do Sonic Team need a defense? If they make a good game, then people will enjoy it. If they don't make a good game, then people won't. Why do we need to defend a multi-million dollar conglomerate, especially seeming as the idea of buying and selling goods is.... well, we give SEGA our money, we get a game in return? Why do they need a defense of whether that next product is going to be any good or not?

    Who worked on Sonic Forces is quite frankly irrelevant. It's a game from 2017, people join and leave companies within 4 years. We don't know who is currently working on every element of a game, and as such it's a silly to try and extrapolate from the people working on it whether there's enough talent to make a new ambitious project work. Sonic Forces is flat out bad, and left a sour taste in many people's mouths because of the blatant misuse of nostalgia to try and sucker fans into sales. They don't need a defense; they released a bad product, they should ensue the wrath of whatever people think it deserves.

    I just don't really see how this is a defense of Sonic Team, to be honest with you. I'm optimistic that the game will be interesting, at least more interesting than Forces was, but nothing more. It's silly to be optimistic as to whether the game is good or bad, seeming as we haven't seen *anything*. We know nothing about it, other than what are in unconfirmed leaks that may or may not be true, nor may or may not be representative of the final product. That's not to say Sonic Team *can't* make a good game, but nothing about who is working on it really tells us that.
     
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  10. Okamikurainya

    Okamikurainya

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    As a moderator, you need to chill and should understand that by now. If you believe they're a troll, stop feeding them. Otherwise you're just looking like an arrogant fool, derailing the topic because of your own emotions and all the while adding to the reply counter and increasing interest in the topic.

    On topic, a lot of the information we already know, and just because some people that did great work elsewhere before doesn't guarantee they'll do great work again... In fact, a lot of the points you made make me feel like it's even more disappointing that forces turned out the way it did.

    For me to do a 180 in regards to my own opinion, they'd need to put a greater emphasis on level design and story, rather than instant gratification, thrills and cheesy one liners.
    Story doesn't necessarily mean a sweeping epic, it just means narrative consistency.
    Level design doesn't necessarily mean vast explorable worlds with branching pathways, it just means a level that provides a level of engagement that doesn't leave you frustrated or worse: zoned out.

    All of that is easier said than done, but it's possible. Right now we have the bare minimum of effort going into, what I consider, the most important aspects, whilst the considerable layers of fluff are granted the most production time. It's all about balance.

    Sonic Team is addicted to fluff though, so I don't see it happening.
     
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  11. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    It really isn't any one thing with Sonic Team honestly. As wordy and complicated as my earlier post was, I was trying to show how many layers there are to the problems Sonic Team seemingly has. I do agree with Okami though, they're seemingly distracted and focusing far too much on the style or coolness of Sonic rather than the execution.
     
  12. XAndrew

    XAndrew

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    A lot of things to take in with this post, but I'm just going to answer the poll of my own opinion? My thoughts on if Sonic Team can deal with the new Sonic game? Well I'm mixed on this. On one hand they do have a lot of talent that can be used to make the new Sonic game the best that it can be. On the other hand their track record hasn't been good at showing that. Especially with how cheap games like Forces are. So yeah. I gotta say I'm skeptical, leading to a more...pessimistic side of Sonic Team handling new Sonic games of ANY kind these days. That said I'm still willing to give them a chance. Because I do want to keep having SOME sort of faith in them as a Sonic fan.
     
  13. Not mentioning any names, as I agree with multiple parties in here, but I'm throwing my two cents in and dipping out:

    >I hate the term "sea-lioning". It's straight up inflammatory. Yes, some people are absolutely trolls, but there are genuine people in the world who just enjoy an engaging conversation. Just cause you don't want to talk about something doesn't mean the conversation starter is doing anything wrong. However, said individual should know when to back off.

    >Sonic Team needs no defense. Talent and passion doesn't automatically equal good results. Speaking from hard-learned experience here. Times may get hard, but when the going gets tough, the tough get going, as they say.

    >A large problem with the internet nowadays is this hive-mind mentality that "since I'm not happy with something, no one else can be either". I've seen people on both sides indirectly trying to shoot down Swiftbix's optimism for... no apparent reason? It's all boiled down to "I have no reason to be happy, you shouldn't either".

    Like holy cow- and people wonder why depression rates are so high. Apparently we're just not allowed to be optimistic anymore. (For anyone wondering, I'm like Silver, and optimist, but also a realist. Assume the worst, hope for the best. I'm very skeptical with Sonic Team right now, but I'm looking towards that fabled good future we hear so much about lol.)

    This thread has just reeked with "no optimism allowed" attitude. Even if everyone's saying it's okay to be optimistic for Sonic Team's future, the tone of voice absolutely suggests it is not.

    >
    Lastly, I just wanna address Swiftbix. I'm among the many who heard the story that Forces was created mostly by Sega newbies. Your thread absolutely did its job and informed me of the history of the game's true developers. However, I have to agree with everyone else- the thread is titled "In Defense of Sonic Team..."; the information you've provided unfortunately doesn't help that case. By showing that seasoned veterans from the classic and adventure days were the ones who worked on Forces, you've unintentionally painted a worse picture of the staff.

    Yes, times were tough, the game almost didn't release. However, we must remember that only 15 years ago, Sega was still releasing multiple new games each year, many of which were developed by Sonic Team, and were of arguably higher quality than Forces (obvious exceptions not withstanding). So they went from producing multiple pretty good games within a year, to one singular mediocre game within the same timespan (longer if we count the time taken to develop hedgehog engine 2). I also think we should assume that Sonic Team has also had the same problems they had with Forces in the past as well. Just think of how many canceled and/or rushed games there have been in the past 30 years. Hell, literally the second ever game almost didn't meet deadlines, and suffered for it.

    I loved your research, and you did a great job gathering it up for ease of access, but I've been in your shoes before, and got my account locked for a year due to my brashness. I really don't want to see you fall into the same pit I already dug. If I were you, I'd stop here. You've said your piece, and from an outside perspective this looks like an uphill argument.

    However, my DMs are open, I'd love to chat more with you outside of the forums. Hit me up- I'd love to discuss the future of the franchise with another optimist lol.

    P.S. I'm not trying to start anything mods. On the contrary, I'm kinda trying to diffuse things. I think this thread should probably be locked though. I can't see anyone getting along in here, sadly.
     
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  14. Swiftbix

    Swiftbix

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    Thank you for the constructive criticism, I appreciate it. I’ll keep some of the things I’ve seen in this thread in mind for future posts/interactions on here. Also, thank you to everyone who participated in the poll or gave their thoughts in the thread.
     
  15. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    This topic took turns I didn't expect...

    Back to the subject. Someone commented precisely what I meant back on the first page when I asked how this was a defense. Just listing the qualifications of Sonic Team members does not constitute a defense. I'm sure they're good at their respective roles, but that's not stopping the games from being produced with questionable quality. The post was very informative, and I appreciated the effort in organizing the information, but the title just doesn't match the content in my opinion.
     
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  16. Swiftbix

    Swiftbix

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    Understood. I see where you and others who said this are coming from.
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Perhaps you should consider renaming the thread? Something like "The Misconception of Sonic Forces' Team"?
     
  18. The Other RaFaél

    The Other RaFaél

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    Ooohhh dear, I don't see this ending well.

    I'm just gonna say this, because I haven't actually bought a Sonic Team title in quite awhile; bringing up a person's past accomplishments and lamenting on their talent isn't gonna convince anyone to settle for consistent recent mediocre (or just downright bad) work from them. If a legendary musician suddenly started releasing questionable or just plain bad material, would it be fair to ask fans to hold off on their criticism because of what they used to do? No matter who it is, almost any time I've seen an otherwise pedestaled artist release sloppy work, even hardcore fans weren't shy in expressing they need to do better. It doesn't cancel out the respect they've had for their past accomplishments and it certainly isn't a question of their talent, but it simply means all hope for any future masterpieces from them is gone until the artist proves otherwise. It's the same principle here. That's a very talented ensemble of individuals you've listed off, but they've simply not had a very trustworthy track record in the past decade and a half. I can tell that just by observation alone. When it comes to Sonic Team, I don't spend money unless they've given sufficient reason why I should.

    Not saying there's no reason to be optimistic. I admire it and it wouldn't be unlike to let my dissatisfaction with something keep me from seeing the bigger picture. Just for me personally, when it comes to Sonic Team, I've just not been given good enough reason to be very optimistic. There's some there, but it's in low supply for sure.

    EDIT: Gawd, my spelling and grammar. I need to go back to bed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
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  19. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    First example that comes to mind is Lil' Wayne. He was hot for a while, then he released some duds (including that ill-conceived rock album) and he lost the faith that he cultivated. Sure there were people that liked his less-than-stellar output, but nobody was making a convincing argument that his fans should look forward to his next album based on him previously doing good shit. It's an argument as strong as wet tissue paper and about as interesting to talk about too.

    Fwiw I'm not gonna do anything to this thread since people seem to think I'm upset. I've given this thread a few chances to change course towards a substantial topic but it hasn't. I'll let someone else do something (or not) about it.
     
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  20. The Other RaFaél

    The Other RaFaél

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    Yep! I was actually thinking of him myself as I wrote that, but I wanted to see if I could come up with a more widely known example as well. My brain just wasn't up to it at that moment, so I didn't mention anyone. But anyway yes, that's a perfect example. Or a more relatable one for everyone is the otherwise decent friend/associate/whatever who wants you to ignore how unreliable he's been recently and loan him some money because he drove you to work or treated you to a burger a few times in the past decade. Like yeah...no.....
     
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