Best times in Sonic 2.

Well then, I guess it's time to debate the usefulness of Rule 5, for whatever reason anyone decided to bring it into play.

A no-death rule is only really needed to the extent that it prevents Time Over abuse (and the mess of timing rules in Death Egg 2 in S&K), at which point it may as well be scaled back to prevent only Time Over from being counted, as opposed to disqualifying anything that contains a death. Anything else stands nowhere near grounds for being restricted.

I will say that the death in that run was intentional, and I knew the rationale for doing so; however, it's the same rationale behind choosing to take any shortcut. Clearly these cannot be banned (how would the decision on which ones to disallow be made, anyway, and what reason could be given?) and in best case, intentional deaths save only 1 second each. Allocated properly, they're just another strategic option, just like any other choices you have to make.

I request that rule 5 be changed to "If you get a Time Over at any time during your run, it doesn't count."

 

There's advantages to dying. You can spindash right off the start of dying, which might not have been possible or taken longer if one had not died. Also, if you make a mistake you can just go and die to possibly fix it, sort of damaging the integrity of the run.

I suggest that you uphold the rule.

 

Also, LOst's times are in Sonic Jam which nullifies them. Please use the original Sonic 2.

 

Again, this saves a single second. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

Some people have beaten/could beat others by a second, so I think there is.

 

Then let's ban the Chemical Plant 1 jump for saving 10 seconds, the Chemical Plant 2 jump for saving 17, the Oil Ocean dives for saving who knows how much, and anything that saves any bit of time over the slowest possible path.

Because as we know, saving time isn't supposed to be the goal or anything...

 

So your saying that dying is a technique rather than a cheat, which I can sort of see. I suppose it's where you draw the line, I'm not really sure. You could say as everyone else here didn't die first it's not fair, but you could also say that it was their own fault for not being aware of the trick/it being banned in the rules. I don't know which is right.

 

Technique is exactly what it is. It's also in a league of its own, as the qualifications for causing it to save time are rather arbitrary:

Kles mentioned one advantage, but there is another: In WF 1:56, I paused immediately after the checkpoint, after noting that the timer had been on 25 for a while. I figured that if it switched over to 26 soon enough, I'd fall in the pit intentionally, which is exactly what happened. See, if I hit the checkpoint at 25.7 seconds (or 25.1 or 25.9—it doesn't matter), then after death it always goes back to 25.0 (so up to 1 second can be gained this way). So you gain time by getting high fractional seconds from the checkpoint.

Banning something because a player might not be aware of it is ridiculous; aren't we the ones trying to discover new things that haven't been noticed before, in order to save time with them?

 

This is the most dumbest thing to argue about.

If you get to a checkpoint and die, then you start where you got the checkpoint before you died right?Well that's no different from creating a save state everytime you do somthing perfectly and then loading it back up agan and agan until you create the ultimate run.That is the lamest thing ever.You should do the entire run without dieing cause where is the fun in making save states and restarting?That shows you have no skill.

And shortcuts SHOULD be allowed as long as you can do them in the run without dieing.No matter how much time it takes off it IS a skill to do some of the shortcuts we use therefore it is a lagit stratagy.Using starposts to shave off fractions of a second is wimpy.Spindashes, jumping from the loop when your halfway and increasing your speed, bouncing off monitors/badniks/springs in a manner your not supposed to, and other tricks should ALSO be allowed as they too require real skill and are a natural part of gameplay.

If you made it 'illegal' to do such tricks than even the simplest trick would disqualify you.For example my run in Death Egg Zone, after I beat Silver Sonic I did a spin dash after Robotnik to gain a few seconds, then I jumped shortly after taking off thus making Sonic run and keep the speed he gained from the spin dash (I would have rolled to a stop otherwise).Even simple things like that would be illegal, especially the trick for Emerald Hill(bouncing off the shield monitor).

In my opinion ANY trick, shortcut, or even glitch should be allowed AS LONG AS it can be done on purpose, can be done within one run without dieing, AND is a natural part/feature/function of normal gameplay.

 

Just like the wall glitch in Bubble Man's stage used by Morimoto in his Megaman 2 speed run.

 

This is where the disagreement seems to stem from. For one, savestates can be originated at any point in the level, wherever happens to be most convenient, while checkpoints are limited in number, and at set points where they were specifically placed. They serve no purpose except to be restart points (and to enter the Special Stage, which is negligible since doing so is pointless for the purposes of this topic, and it serves as a restart anyway immediately afterwards.

Another thing to consider is restarting only works as long as your life total remains positive. Most stages do have indefinite extensions of life total, but the time it takes to extend it an excessive number of times may well be better spent going back and replaying the level, depending on player. Checkpoints ONLY work as a timesaver if you know what youre doing with them, same as everything else.

Speaking of "natural part of gameplay", so is the sequence that takes place when you fall into a pit. More on that later.

Loopjumping, bounce connecting, and the like ARE in fact valid techniques—someone figured out how they work, tried them out, and in the end found a way to save time with them.

Using checkpoints to your advantage is no different. I found that hitting one, regardless of whether your fractional second is low or high at the time, causes that fraction to fall to 0 after death. So obviously it took a good deal of studying to see that there was in fact something to gain this way. You gain whenever you have a high fractional second crossing the checkpoint, the higher the better, and a maximum of 1 second to be gained. (1 second is not a "key limit" time; it could be 3, 5, or 15; the only important part is that nothing be so degenerate that it mitigates a considerable number of levels)

Additionally, you are now left to decide what exactly requires "real skill", and even come up with a definition for the term. (As is sometimes the case, there is a possibility that "real skill" has been defined as "something that's not to hard for 'me' to discover"; I will set this possibility aside at the moment).

This is exactly what makes it absurd, and intentional deaths are part of the same category.

Way to introduce "without dieing [sic]" as an arbitrary qualifier and expect it to be taken as an axiom. Apart from that, it's a perfectly natural process within the game:

function processKill {
//pre: player is hit with 0 rings, is crushed, or falls into a pit
player.life--;
player.setRing(0);
if(checkpoint>0) {
player.setLocation(lastCheckpoint.location());
player.setTime(int(lastCheckpoint.time()/60)*60);
else {
player.setLocation(START_OF_LEVEL);
player.setTimer(0.0);
}
objects.initialize();
}
I'm sure the function does a bit more than that, but this gets all the important steps, including how the timer is dealt with. Dying IS a part of the game, or else it wouldn't be possible...or at least commonplace. And if there's a way to use it to shorten your time...so be it.

On a side note, it's not just deaths, but any checkpoint restart that does the trick. Carnival Night 2 - Sonic - 2:27 (S3&K—this strat doesn't work without lock-on) shows a first checkpoint that gets maximum benefit, and the final checkpoint comes about 0.1 away and as a result gets no time benefit at all (but I had been recording for nearly 3 hours and just wanted a completion at that point, so I let it slide). S2 could do the same, with enough rings.

 

I fail to understand how you can possibly figure that dying in order to shave off time that has already elapsed can be a legitimate method of saving it. I see it no more then a cheat.

No offense, but it just seems to be a trick so you can get a better time then you are already getting. Give it up, you're already about 15 times better then the rest of us, so give it a break, do it legitimately, and when I say legitimately, I mean by our accepted rules, not your own personal set of rules, and if you don't like it, don't include them.

 

Go join the hundred thousand million bajillion people complaining that exploiting glitches the developer(s) left in the game (Morimoto's exploits of the pause glitch in his Megaman 1 speed run, and the Bubbleman stage glitch in his Megaman 2 run spring to mind) isn't a valid speed run, even if it saves time. You'll have just as much luck; dying is a valid strategy if used wisely. If you're saying dying is a cheat then you fail to understand the fundamental concept of the game.

And getting a better time isn't the point at all, is it?

The rules are flawed. If he has to point out the flaw, so be it.

 

Yes..sometimes improving your time is a quest that takes advantage of literally EVERY facet in the game, and in this case it happens to be a quirk in the timer itself.

If you want a corollary, go ask any member of the GoldenEye Elite about "lookdown strafing".

 

One more rule that needs considering:

 

Thank you for exactly stating what the problem is with the picture.

 

The reason should be blindingly obvious.

 

Excuse me for not being entirely proficient in the ways and workings of S2 and K.

I dunno, the picture looks photoshopped? I mean the time thing is a bit weird.

EDIT: Rephrased it.

 

For CP2, that's normal, because the background is yellow->white there.

[EDIT]Forget the above.

This time with video.

 

O_O

Whoa...

I see nothing wrong with that, that was just plain skill and making use of Knuckles' abilities.

EDIT: Heh, I find it funny how Knuckles looks like he's attacking his little flashy continue picture at the end. Just a thought..