Bashing Sonic Mania

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Chaos Rush, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I think they actually made the Metal Sonic boss worse by adding the Kai section. He looks cool, but he's really annoying to fight because you keep glitching behind him. And if you game over, you go right back to Act 1.

    I also dislike Metal Sonic fights where he transforms. The second section in the original was a bit dumb with the spike wall, but at least you actually fought Metal Sonic properly one to one.
     
  2. Shade Vortex

    Shade Vortex

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    I actually agree that the Metal Sonic fight was made worse. I used to like replaying that stage, but now I don't like fighting Kai every time I do. The other fight was a lot easier to deal with, ultimately.
    Other than that. other boss fights are poorly designed IMO. I remember having a bunch of trouble with the Octopus boss in OOZ if I didn't have a fire shield/super sonic. I also don't actually like the Spider boss or the Heavy Rider. Heck, I also don't like the giant caterkiller boss. There's very few bosses in this game that I did like.
     
  3. Ravenfreak

    Ravenfreak

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    The game's physics aren't 100% accurate to the original 16-bit games. The characters feel much more floaty than they do in the originals. Other than the usual complaint of having more rehashed stages than original ones, those are really the only things I can bash this game for. The latter is just Sonic Team's fault though, since they wanted more rehashed stages than anything else.
     
  4. Fred

    Fred

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    The physics are accurate as far as I can tell, but the camera has this weird interpolation effect that diminishes the impact of landing; everything feels too soft.
     
  5. SyntaxTsu

    SyntaxTsu

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    My main gripe is with the laziness in LRZ1's tile design. I mean really - they could have made an FG Lower layer for the interior wall, and then used FG Low and FG High to create the overlapping rock patterning - but nope! Instead they get rid of the overlapping on the rocks.
     
  6. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    & Knuckles Member
    I hate to go on a tangent here, but Lava Reef Zone Act 1's design changes weren't due to laziness: It was actually due to the Rock Object Layout that Lava Reef Zone Act 1 uses to put the character behind the artwork when indoors. I might be wrong, but I recall there being confirmation of issues with the original artwork, and using the existing Rock Object Layout in the new system (or maybe even a lack of understanding in how it all worked? I know Stealth didn't support it in SonED2). There's an older, broken layout still in the game that shows these issues, too. I expect redrawing some of the artwork was probably easier based on the resources available. While it doesn't have the same depth to it as the original, it still works for the level.

    That being said, some of the tiling in general is quite bad in both the original and the remake, and could definitely have been tidied up a bit. Also, the addition of the new loops in Act 1 really don't work. They look way too small, lack depth for the 2 paths you can go on, and seem to be placed in places that don't really work with them. It's a very strange decision to have been made.
     
  7. Fred

    Fred

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    Going on a co-tangent here, but to clarify, the original stage uses high priority sprites to get around the fact that Sonic can't appear both behind the foreground rocks and in front of the cave background when both are present in the same 8x8 tile -- VDP plane tiles are drawn either entirely behind or entirely in front of sprites, depending on priority. This is why some bits in Hill Top Zone look weird where the ground takes a dip -- Sonic's shoes seemingly get eaten by the darkness or something.

    The same sprite trick is used in Sandopolis for the rounded platform tops, though there it's more to do with the rising sand than the player. So there are bits carved out of the main level chunks which later get filled in by these decorative sprites. The difference is that these sprites are so pervasive in Lava Reef, they moved them to a separate layout subsystem, to avoid Object Happiness Disease from allocating an entire SST for each pebble on the floor.

    Either these sprites were not well understood by the Mania development team (I only added SonLVL support for them in 2018), they didn't have time to figure it out, or they decided it wasn't worth the trouble for just the one stage, but as I understand it they ended up just filling in the missing bits directly in the level chunks, sacrificing that extra bit of depth in the process.

    https://info.sonicretro.org/Christian_Whitehead_interview_by_Glixel_(September_7,_2017)
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  8. Endgame

    Endgame

    Formerly The Growler Member
    • Some levels have the illusion of multiple paths, but there's really only one way to go through it.
    • The game gives you far too many rings.
    • These things:
    [​IMG]

    They're *everywhere* in Studiopolis Zone Act 2, and they're not fun at all!
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  9. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    This is because they're specifically the loops from Endless Mine as a callback, IIRC

    Given the shenanigans that can happen with the rising sand specifically and the nuts Lava Reef glitches that ORKAL demonstrated, I'm almost tempted to say that the original team didn't understand them that well either :V or rather, that the implementation was difficult/hacky enough that breaking stuff in either of those zones can literally reset the game in PAL mode or break the renderer.
     
  10. Frostav

    Frostav

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    Funny that: not only do I adore both remixes of SS, I also think that its two acts are some of the most well-designed Sonic levels of all time. The sheer chaos of them is somehow always perfectly controlled--like this is what CD's level design wanted to be, but could not for whatever reason. Near-perfection. Sonic levels should be messy webs of routes like Mania's Stardust Speedway acts are.
     
  11. Mana

    Mana

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    Thank God that no one at SEGA thinks this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  12. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    Hydocity Act 2 is a god damned near clone of the original Sonic 3's act, almost tile for tile, and it royally pisses me off to see that much stage design recycled in the game. I'm sure time and budget were somewhat limited, but these levels hold back a game that could have surpassed S3&K and land it squarely a step behind it.

    The rest of the maps are pretty great, even Green Hill 1 expands on the original in ways that are very clever, and Chemical Plant 1 is passable, though still a bit too recycled for my taste (I do enjoy its expansions where they exist). Lava Reef and Stardust Speedway are okay in terms of recycled to new ratio.

    But Hydrocity was a waste. The transition to Mirage Saloon sucked too, though I realize traveling to the 3 different versions somewhat limited them.

    Encore Mirage Saloon Act 1 is a fantastic stage that should've been there from the start. We didn't need another Tornado stage. I'm glad they made it, but it should be playable in regular Mania mode too. The Knuckles Stage is also excellent. The fact that all 3 versions exists now helps neuter this complaint, but at the time getting one of the 8 brand new acts being a tornado stage for Sonic was a slap in the face.

    Press Garden should have been split into two zones... the two acts are almost nothing alike. Heck, I've often theorized that they were originally separate stages until time/budget/something forced them to combine the assets into just one stage with almost entirely different themes, gimmicks and even tiles (save a small number of them). This would have greatly helped the balance between recycled stages and new.

    Once again, we pass up the chance to remake the Game Gear/Master System stages into something great and more modern. If only...

    I just wanted 6 100% new fully realized classic zones amidst the rest of the recycled ones. 4 was too few.

    Knuckles had far too few alternate paths compared to S3&K. A few of them were great, with his own Mirage Saloon stage being top notch and quite at least a clever twist after the Tornado disappointment, but he didn't get much else at all. Some routes in Chemical Plant Act 2 and Green Hill's alternate starting point are the biggest ones I remember.

    Encore mode didn't change up the levels enough, aside from the one single new act (which was fantastic). A few clever additions for Rey/Mighty, but Knuckles' story mode in Sonic 3 it was not.

    The tie in to Forces taints it a bit, since the latter was so much less enjoyable.

    Oh, AND NO SEQUEL NEWS! COME ON, SEGA! THIS THING PRINTED MONEY!

    That's pretty much it. Beyond that I have nothing but praise for the game. It's still in the top 3 of the franchise, just not my #1 slot.
     
  13. kyasarintsu

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    A thing I felt with some of the levels, like Green Hill 1, Chemical Plant 1, and Lava Reef 1, is that a lot of the new content seems off the beaten path, almost like they wanted the a "main" path that was comparatively pure while the new stuff was put elsewhere. It's strange, letting me mostly-autopilot some levels due to muscle memory from the classics and having to make an active choice to see all the many additions.
     
  14. Vanishing Vision

    Vanishing Vision

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    I learned there were only four new zones before I first played the game, and while I loved my first playthrough, that fact kind of stuck in my head as a "yeah, but...". Definitely the biggest disappointment about Mania.

    What's worse is that Press Garden was really the only new zone that was a surprise. Studiopolis and Mirage Saloon were revealed, but Titanic Monarch was less exciting because of how obvious it was. A last zone that's an ominous mechanical base. Not bad at all, but was anyone really blown away by it? Compared to a movie studio, Feudal Japanese printing house (???) and an old west saloon?
     
  15. Mana

    Mana

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    The worst part about Titanic Monarch is that someone had the bright idea to put it right before Metallic Madness which anyone playing this game knows is the last level of Sonic CD. So we have to play two final zones back to back.

    It's gotten less annoying overtime but the Oil Ocean - Titanic Monarch (Egg Reverie too) stretch of the game is my least favorite of the game. Guess that's something to bash. Sonic Mania's final stretch is AWFUL compared to 3 and Knuckles.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  16. Palas

    Palas

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    Compared to any game that's not a Greatest Hits like @Laura said. Titanic Monarch itself is an absolute letdown to me in every aspect, but most of all because I have no idea what the Titanic Monarch is or what it means to be there. A similar concept was used in Sonic 3D Blast, but Panic Puppet is far superior because you can actually see you're entering the point of no return.

    It was not foreshadowed like in S3&K, and the lack of progression means I don't get to feel the thematic/gameplay difference between it and Green Hill.

    So there. Titanic Monarch is the worst classic last level.
     
  17. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Idk I still like Titanic Monarch more than Scrap Brain and Death Egg Sonic 2 (fuck the original Death Egg Robot, its shitty hit box and the lack of rings, it took me 9 years to finally beat that game, a good chunk of that was Death Egg hell. I still remember playing as Knuckles in Sonic Jam, I had 23 lives, 6 continues, and I still game overed and I was pissed), but it's not great.

    One thing I wondered with the original Metal Sonic fight though, they had the perfect opportunity to bring back the laser machine Eggman chased Sonic with in the original CD Metal Sonic fight, but instead it was a weird spike wall... like what?

    I mostly prefer the Metal Sonic Kai fight, but it'd of been cool if that was encode exclusive while Mania mode kept the original version (well the additional check point they added was nice)
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  18. Mana

    Mana

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    It's supposed to be the outside of Eggman's super weapon then the inside but I have no clue what the super weapon was even for or what it did so I don't like it either.

    HOWEVER I have to disagree about the lack of progression. Just like Sonic 3 and Knuckles the early stages are outside and open and give you a lot of freedom but they get more enclosed, tighter, and more focused on making you go through a really hard section then rewarding you in some way be it rings or a shield or extra life or something. After Mirage Saloon the game gets noticeably harder.
     
  19. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

    TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

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    I actually like Titanic Monarch. My only gripe with it is that it's a bit long and can be pretty cruel at times (but I love hard games, like The Lost Levels). It feels like a good endgame level.
     
  20. Myles_Zadok

    Myles_Zadok

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    Um, it was foreshadowed in the Metal Sonic Kai fight and the zone transition to Hydrocity at the end of Stardust Speedway...

    [​IMG]