Bashing Sonic Generations

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Mana, Aug 13, 2020.

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  1. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    Generations' level design is 99% straight corridors with barriers, how the hell did you managed to get out of bound so many times lol
     
  2. Beltway

    Beltway

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    For me, I think the problem with Generations and its (lack of) originality is less about the that the game is nothing but remakes and references towards stages from older games, and more about how it set the stage for later Sonic games. Looking back, Generations, looks like a instigator of the trend of having nearly every Sonic game since then have half or most of its games be remakes or rehashes of past levels many of us are now totally sick of. But in 2011 it was a novelty that most Sonic games haven't done; and it was least justified by it being the milestone 20th anniversary game.

    $50 is usually considered within the range of a full price MSRP; IIRC most of Nintendo's premium first-party games retailed at that price until the Wii U / Switch bumped up the price to $60. You're right in that it did go down later in price though, esp. on Steam where it's been on sale constantly.

    For what it's worth--if you have the Steam version of Generations, I would recommend installing either the Fixing Generations Forever or the Classic Sonic Improvement, and the No Automation mods. The first mod does an extensive job in fixing Classic Sonic's physics/controls to be significantly closer to the Genesis games (and doing similar QoL changes to Modern Sonic); such as improving his rolling speed, and nerfing the spindash, and tweaking his jump height, acceleration, and slope detection. It's effectively been abandoned though (last updated in 2012 or so), so the second mod tries to pick up where that one left off (last updated in 2018, I think). It's more specific to classic Sonic and has its own quirks.

    The third mod meanwhile takes away a lot of the scripted and automated elements in the level design (ergo, dash panels and scripted ramps) to allow for more natural movement and more control. Unfortunately there's no videos to showcase either the first/second and third mod together, so you'd have to look at them in action separately (check the videos in the spoilers below) to get some idea of how much better classic Sonic's gameplay is with them both installed. (There used to be one video on YT with FGF and NoAuto installed, it was an Nvidia Shadowplay test in Green Hill Act 1, but it's since been deleted or privatized. Unfortunate.)




    Obligatory disclaimers though that:
    a. If you're thinking "okay, that's nice, but I shouldn't have to mod the game for more authentic/better controls and physics"--yes, absolutely! No disagreements there! Not using this as a defense for Sega/ST at all, especially since, if Forces is anything to go by, they have learned almost jack in improving classic Sonic's gameplay there.
    b. While these improvements are nice, the existing level design doesn't really take advantage of it as it does in the classic games outside of a few moments in some levels, so these mods aren't completely elevate Classic Sonic in Generations to an authentic installment of Genesis gameplay. (Although I personally still really like Classic Sonic's levels and would say playing it with more accurate physics/no automation is better than playing it with the original physics/tons of automation.)

    e: wheee i took way more time than i needed to in constantly updating this post with extra notes and video links
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  3. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I've 100%ed both Unleashed and Generations multiple times and can count on one hand the number of times boosting has sent me out of bounds (when I wasn't actively trying to break the game).

    And I can count on zero hands the number of times where simply running somewhere, along a path, has caused me to go out of bounds.

    I genuinely do not know what the fuck you are talking about here.
     
  4. 12AEBAA1-4160-4FEB-9C55-A40328ABD419.png
    The meme is for humor. Do not take it seriously. You’re completely welcome to have your own opinion.

    That being said, I disagree with virtually everything you said. It’d just take too long to rebut everything.
     
  5. Lostgame

    Lostgame

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    I was very careful in my post to distinguish between opinion and fact.

    My opinion is, it's garbage because it's core gameplay is broken. The programming / scientific facts are, the core gameplay is broken.

    Just in a programming/science sense, about how the values for the variables I listed are absolutely completely off / incorrect compared to any of the so-called actual 'classic' games, I don't think it's really possible to objectively 'disagree'.

    These are literally numbers/variables, and it's science. :/ Not sure how that can possibly be interpreted as subjective, because, well - that's the point of science.

    It's not really subjective opinion - I've actually started putting together a YouTube video by following[1], and comparing it to the Sonic 3K disassembly's source.

    It's...damning. Even the results I've found in the last three hours or so, and confirms exactly what I knew from playing it - this unfortunately isn't something that's arguable - certain things are subjective, like graphics, story, music, etc. Certain things are hard-coded facts. This is one of the latter.

    Objective fact: SEGA did not program the physics of Classic Sonic in Sonic Generations, variable/number-wise; anywhere close to any of the 'Classic' games. Certainly the in-air control alone is damning enough on that. YouTube video with number-by-number comparison coming this week so that can be acknowledged as the fact it is.

    I can't provide objective facts to the Boost physics, but I have had success so far with comparing Generations with the S3K disassembly. I am making an Excel sheet which determines the differential between the variables and states by what amount each of them are off from what they should be. If you can't consider this objective / science, we can't have a conversation.

    Subjective opinion: The game is unplayable, disappointing; and yet another disgrace to Sonic by SEGA.

    [1]https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=338342577
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  6. "[T]he physics are not exactly like Sonic 2 because the game isn't Sonic 2. Sega's released a billion ports of Sonic 2 if that's what you want." - Jim Sterling

    Are Generations' classic physics perfect? Hell no. But it's also not supposed to be a 1:1 recreation of the classic gameplay.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  7. Josh

    Josh

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    It's objective that the physics in Generations aren't a match for the 16-bit classics, sure.

    But it's subjective how much that matters.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  8. Who cares if it isn't coded just like the classics?

    I can tell you that like 99/100 people aren't interested if it is or not, and that's coming from a dude who was also disappointed that the game's classic stages weren't a lot like the classics in feel. But even then like.. why does that matter if it's fun? And why should anyone's designator of what's 'fun' or even 'good' depend on said variables?

    On that note, I literally have no idea how you had so many issues with collision or whatever in Generations when I cannot recall a single time it's failed me, nor any other people's experiences. And that's from people I've been around who've played the game for over a decade.
     
  9. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I do think some people get a bit overexcited about the physics of Classic Sonic, calling it perfection and everything. The physics of Classics Sonic are really good, but let's be honest, they weren't perfect. It wasn't like you couldn't clip out bounds in the levels. I remember that there was a lot of animation bugs too, especially in Sonic 1, such as when Sonic would sometimes jump and not curl up. The game didn't care about slowdown when rings would fly everywhere, which isn't a physics issue, but is a blatantly dreadful technical issue. It's stunning that it got into the game, as well as the set-pieces which similarly grind everything to a halt (like the spike log in Green Hill).

    So yeah, Classic Sonic was better designed than Generations, but it wasn't God's gift to the world either.
     
  10. Mana

    Mana

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    Yeah I need to see a video of her playing it because I've never had any problems like this in all the years I've played the game.
     
  11. Only for viewing

    Only for viewing

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    my biggest flaw with this game is that I want more
    I want more recycled stages yes they're recycled but they're recycled GOOD

    oh also sonic's friends in this game are annoying
     
  12. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

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    I find Generations’ physics to be playable and nowhere near as bad as Sonic 4’s.

    But what’s annoying is that during Generations pre-release Iizuka said it will “have physics closest to the classic games since the classic games themselves” which was blatantly false (Advance series had much closer physics than Generations). Nothing wrong with having different physics as long as it’s playable, but there’s a lot wrong with lying about it. EDIT: In his defense, maybe he genuinely believed that to be true when he said it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  13. Mana

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    The Classic Sonic stages being relatively enjoyable was really just butter on the toast for me, I came for the modern stages and they were fantastic.
     
  14. Chibisteven

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    There's the Adventure games where you could go out of bounds and literally fall into nothingness forever instead of dying and there's classic Sonic games where you could clip through something and fall to your death and see stuff you're not supposed to see at all (i.e. Sonic 3 and that one section if you jump just right spot in Hydrocity Zone Act 2). I love to see a video of how @Lostgame is playing Sonic Generations.
     
  15. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    I had played Generations for two hours and did manage to clip Classic Sonic out of bounds trying to find red rings, so it's not unheard of, but it wasn't a common occurrence for me either. Though, honestly I dislike the Classic Sonic physics because it just feels wrong. I don't need it to be just like the Genesis games (Advance wasn't) but it just doesn't feel good to me and I went to grab mods for it pretty much immediately as a result.
     
  16. TheInvisibleSun

    TheInvisibleSun

    OVER THE TOP TECHNO-BLAST Member
    While we're on Classic Sonic issues, I've always hated that springs briefly lock Sonic's x position, instead of letting you use the momentum you hit it with. They all send you directly up at first by default.
     
  17. Chibisteven

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    I never 100% a game that I didn't have something happen in the process as far glitches or bugs go. Better tested games have less of them that could really break the game but they're always there. Really simple games are the ones that are either totally glitch-free or have ones that you won't find unless you're really trying to break things. I have 100% enough games to know this.

    For the classic Sonic stages I use the D-Pad and for the Modern ones I use the analog stick. It took a bit of getting used to both of them (much more-so the Modern stages) when I first played the game. This was the first Boost to win style of Sonic game I've ever played. Most of my criticisms of the game would be along the lines of what everybody else has already said. That said the game is enjoyable but it isn't without it's flaws.

    I started out in the franchise playing the Classic Sonic games on a Genesis in it's heyday and got a Dreamcast in it's heyday and enjoy the Adventures in their heyday and after that took a bit of a long break from the series playing the Advance games and then later Sonic Rush Adventure while I focused on other things at the time. I managed to miss out on the dark ages of the Sonic series but it is curiosity for me. LOL
     
  18. Myles_Zadok

    Myles_Zadok

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    I recorded myself "clipping out of bounds" by simply avoiding a loading point in Sky Sanctuary (the only place I've had this happen to me), so maybe this is what Lostgame is talking about? Because this looks like it could be an out of bounds area, even though it's just the parts of the stage that actually loaded.
     
  19. Chibisteven

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    That's a graphics loading bug for sure. It could very well be what @Lostgame was talking about but I still like to see video of her playing the game or at least confirm that's what she seen happen.
     
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  20. Mana

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    I mean that's the thing. I've clipped out of the game before too when I decided to boost at the wrong moment but she makes it sound like it happens at such a frequency that this game was Sonic 06 level buggy and should have never passed any early playtests.
     
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