Bashing Sonic Generations

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Mana, Aug 13, 2020.

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  1. Play them back to back. Notice how the 3DS version is, you know, an actual fight with challenge and stakes. Compare it to the main version, which is quite literally just holding X to win. (You don't even need to switch to Classic Sonic to beat it!)

    I'm not really trying to defend the 3DS fight - it's not that good - but it's still an improvement from the console one.
     
  2. Blue Blood

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    Two very similar, very shitty fights. One is a bit less shit than the other.

    I'd rather not play with shit in any form tbh.
     
  3. Bryn2k

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    I loved Generations right up until Egg Dragoon then I gave up...
     
  4. Starduster

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    @Bryn2k Care to elaborate? I was of the impression that the Egg Dragoon was a fan favourite boss so I’m intrigued to hear why you didn’t like it.
     
  5. Bryn2k

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    I don't know if it was the puzzle element, or the fact there's just too much going on at once, or if I just totally suck, but I just didn't enjoy it. It felt like it was trying to be too clever, but the concept is not a bad one. It just didn't work for me.
     
  6. Xiao Hayes

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    I hate Egg Dragoon as well, but I beat it. Took a bunch of tries, though.
     
  7. SuperSonicRider

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    I think Sonic Generations is a pretty well-designed game as a whole! I have just a few issues with it.
    I didn't hate Egg Dragoon but I do find it a little boring! It doesn't feel very well-paced compared to most of the other bosses. Likewise, Time Eater is also probably my second-least favorite Super Sonic boss that I've ever played. Also, I think Super Sonic, of all the games he's been implemented in as a bonus, is probaby at his weakest here, gameplay-wise. This is not an uncommon opinion but it's odd that the endgame stuff in this game is so...off, when the game is pretty strong in other respects

    As for smaller complaints, I think it's weird that Classic Sonic's boxart/trailer model is so blatantly different design-wise than the in-game one? I get the designs that each model was drawing from, but looking back on it, it feels just a little off; even more so since they continued this with Forces. I think the in-game model for both games matches with the old Ohshima art a lot better so, to me, it's weird that they didn't just use that all around. Futhermore, of course, the Classic Sonic physics are of course not the best; it's not hard to get used to them, but it would be nice if rolling worked at least.
     
  8. Frostav

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    I'm watching Snapcube play through Sonic Unleashed right now and while it's been a bit since I played Gens...uh, wow, I was surprised to see how cinematic and active Unleashed's camera in the daytime stages was. They were framed and shot in a way that looks so much more alive than what I remember Gens stages being, where the camera generally stayed at one distance from Sonic and almost never moved around to frame the action differently. Huh.
     
  9. Xiao Hayes

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    I actually prefer that, is a lot less confusing (as long as it's well positioned, of course, if not it's shit). I get why you want it the other way, though.
     
  10. Violet CLM

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    I beat Sonic Generations today after occasionally managing to muster up the enthusiasm to make a little progress over a period of years. It's... wow. It's not good. The 2D sections are fine and gorgeous, but everything else is a constant battle between what I tell Modern Sonic to do and what he actually does. The least tap to the left or right and he breaks into a spindash or something for no reason at all. Constantly steering himself into bottomless pits, getting stuck inside holes, and failing at sections that look like they're automated but actually dump him into pits just short of the next platform. The level layouts constantly demand precision and he can barely move any direction but straight ahead. Seaside Hill Act 2 and Shadow probably took over an hour each, and Perfect Chaos is a broken mess. Cut out a third of each modern stage, all the spike wisp sections, most of the bosses, most of the cutscenes, all the missions, and the whole weird white hub level place, and the game becomes playable, but unfortunately all that stuff is mandatory.
     
  11. laughing_sun

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    Honestly I like almost nothing about this game. What I do like is the shorter list, and it's better to be positive. :D

    Zooming through the "modern" version of Green Hill Zone in 3D with Super Sonic is pretty fun. That's about it.

    Oh. I also like the Perfect Chaos fight, because sometimes I would try to beat Perfect Chaos in the original Sonic Adventure as just regular Sonic. Even if you hit him and destroy him as regular Sonic, you will lose a life and have to start over it. So, I guess it was cool that I finally got to beat him as regular Sonic in a legit way. There might be one or two other silly things like that. But yeah, very disappointed with this one.
     
  12. Printthelegends

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    I overall like the game, but I have issues with how the "classic" aspect of it all is portrayed.

    Keeping Classic Sonic mute as a "tribute" to the lack of dialogue in the Genesis games makes no sense when Classic Tails and Eggman both talk. It's just awkward that he never makes any noise at all, especially when both Sonics and Tailses are in the same scene. They really should have just called Jaleel White.

    It's also weird that Classic Amy and Classic Knuckles have no presence. Nor do any characters that are relegated to the classic era. It's funny that there's a bit where Classic Eggman doesn't recognize Shadow and Rouge and the like, but why not go all in and follow it up with a joke where Modern Eggman doesn't remember Fang, Mighty and Ray? The "wanted" and "missing" posters in City Escape are a nice touch, but I'd prefer those characters have an actual physical presence.

    It seems like whenever a popular franchise does a Contemporary Meets Original crossover, particularly franchises aimed mainly at a younger audience, the narrative always tilts in favor of the newest incarnation. The "Turtles Forever" crossover from just a couple of years before Generations was really guilty of this, as its entire thesis seemed to be "Boy, those old 80s Turtles sure were dumb and silly. Aren't you glad you have these way cooler Turtles now?" As a little bitty I had a videotape where the 80s versions of Alvin and the Chipmunks meet their original 50s counterparts, and it was the same thing. Sonic Generations never goes full tilt into that, it never outright mocks Classic Sonic or anything, but it still seems to be making the case that the newer version is preferable given the lack of attention to detail with regards to the Classic ephemera.
     
  13. SystemsReady

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    I played it for the first time last night. Uh...Modern is extremely overwhelming but great, but the fact that I immediately went to mod how Classic controls after GHZ Act 1 is kind of a travesty honestly.
     
  14. Mana

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    I tried playing Modern stages today and I just couldn't. The stages are fun but they don't add up to a cohesive whole to me and just reuse too many of the same tropes. I just ended up leaving and playing Unleashed mod instead. I think Generations has better level design in most places but at least each and everyone of Unleashed stages tries a different trope.
     
  15. The levels were alright, but there just wasn’t enough main levels to keep the game long enough. The challenges are just padding to increase game time, not cohesive elements of the game. And the massive problem is that these challenges are almost 2/3 of the ENTIRE GAME. Like, could it hurt to remove a few challenges for some more levels?

    Also, beating a dead horse when i say this, but the final boss sucks
     
  16. My main beefs with Generations are:

    1 ) It feels like cheating to say Generations is the "best" 3D Sonic when it's hardly got an original bone in it's body. Basically all of it's ideas, it's visuals, it's music, etc comes from OR is an interpretation of something else, and it presents itself as a "best of" collection. Like, a band can record some of their best songs into a medley, but I'm not gonna call the medley their best song ever, even if it does offer a unique spin on the tracks inside. It owes all of what it does right to other things (which honestly is a similar feeling I have about Mania, but that's another discussion).

    2 ) It's also hard to say the game is all that great when there's such a distinct lack of content. Generations feels like a breeze that you zoom through in a little under two hours, which while being okay for the classics isn't quite what I have in mind when paying full price these days. The replay value pretty much only exists in doing missions (that aren't fun) or getting S Ranks; of which the latter would be good enough to pass for this, but S Ranking in Generations is so easy-peasy that someone with even a little more elbow grease than usual can do no problem.

    3 ) Speaking of lack of content, I feel like the presentation is just.. too minimalistic. The story doesn't feel hype enough to be an apt 20th anniversary celebration (and tbf it didn't need to be), but I still believe they could've tried harder at making it feel higher stakes. My bigger issue, actually, lies in how the hubs are just so low-key. I know people complained about them in past games so they probably reeled back, but I find the straight line hub really.. boring? Like I almost would've rather just gone straight from level to level instead if that's how we're gonna do it. Idk, it just feels like the need to keep it as safe as possible held the presentation back.

    -----

    The game's still good though. Really, even.

    It's like a 7.5 and is definitely the most consistent 3D Sonic package. I just don't think that equates to the highs that other 3D Sonics have given; particularly the Adventures and Unleashed. Saying it was the best 3D game has always felt like a backhanded compliment anyway, meant to put down the other games more than say Gens is good.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  17. Mana

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    They never charged full price for this game. It was always $50 and quickly went down in price.
     
  18. SystemsReady

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    yeah like, it strikes me as strange that this game has these ridiculously colorful and stylized menus, levels that are almost outright cluttered and overwhelming to look at...but the hub is just....so bland. It's a lot of white, the music doesn't really get you pumped, and there's like one character on screen at any given time (aside from Sonic).
     
  19. Sid Starkiller

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    I will never understand this. Why do people care so much if things are "original"? It absolutely no difference who did it first, what matters is who did it best. Imagine going back to when Isaac Newton was figuring out gravity, looking at all the calculations he did to figure out how it worked, and responding "Pfft, MATH? Please, Sir Newton, math has been done, show me something original."
     
  20. Lostgame

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    I finally downloaded and played this. I really, really; had let myself give this a serious chance. It just seems like an exercise in frustration and masochism, especially with the first issue that I know could easily be fixed:

    1) By-the-numbers wrong / broken physics

    God *damn* the physics are wrong, by the numbers - for Classic Sonic.

    What's fascinating about this vs. a lot of subjective issues that come up with games, such as story, presentation, etc - this is uniquely undebatable - the ability to objectively, rather than subjectively; prove it, is what makes it such an embarrassing issue.

    Read further for my logic/reasoning.

    The following core gameplay values are completely off. I mean, someone give me the source and just let me adjust:

    • acceleration speed
    • main velocity
    • jump height
    • jump length over time
    • deceleration speed
    • turn speed (from right to left/vice versa),
    • control speed in air

    ...that's just what's broken I can think of off the top of my head. For classic Sonic alone.

    I actually noticed it at the overworld hub, before I'd even got a chance to go into a level - I said 'oh, God; this has gotta just be for the overworld, I can barely aim and land a jump.'

    The disappointment I felt when I made my first jump in that beautiful 3D green hill environment, ngl; was when I really felt that feeling in my gut, like 'oh; no, they did it again'.

    And; hear me out - I'm just not hating for hating's sake here; and I respect subjective opinions - but, objectively - the physics of Classic Sonic in Generations is nowhere close to the actual Genesis, or even GBA(advance 1/2/3), 'Classic' 2D titles.

    Here's the meat/proof:
    Given source code, I know we can tell - by specific numbers/values - how off the variables representing these physics in code are from the original values, from, say, Sonic 3K's ASM values. There have been mods and patches in an attempt to actually correct this already. This is not our job as a community. It's SEGA's to make sure they're right to start.

    These are, by the numbers - not Classic Sonic physics. They are not any incarnation of Sonic's physics. They are broken. (edit: in fact, they honestly seem about equal to Sonic 4's, e.g. awful/broken to shit - and just as insulting to real fans by trying to cash in on an association with actual classics - insert GIF of Sonic standing 90º on a loop...)

    2) It breaks what made Sonic fun to start.

    And here is the real issue for me - it breaks Sonic, de facto. I don't enjoy playing it any more. It's no longer fun. It's no longer appealing.

    This is because, for myself as well as for a *lot* of people in the early 90's - Sonic's precise, fine-tuned, virtually flawless physics engine made Sonic what it was, and fun to play when it first came out.

    It literally is what make Sega confident enough to throw Sonic and a Genesis next to an SNES and Super Mario World, and make people feel like they'd want a Sonic / Genesis, instead.

    Nobody had played anything that fast - but, more importantly; fast and fun, with that precision under the hood selling the idea that the hardware itself was what made it so good.

    Rolling around in that loop-de-loop. Feeling the actual motion. Making risky jumps, because you trust the engine so much that if you mess up, you know it's your fault - these feelings were achieved on a system 1/100th as powerful as what Generations is running on, 20 years before.

    If the physics were improved, I'd be able to understand - as long as there was also an option for more traditional controls. The result in Generations, however; is Sonic often feeling like he's on water or ice.

    What Generations has done, especially by claiming to celebrate 20 years of Sonic, is spit on the precision mechanics Naka and co. worked so hard on for that original 1991 release.

    The worst physics crime of all - the in-air-speed value (while jumping) - is certainly the game-shattering number that is most off.

    It messes me up so consistently that landing basic jumps is an exercise in frustration - discourages me from taking any risks, and often ends up in one of those worst of gaming moments that we have all dealt with:

    When you want to throw down the controller, because you have consistently missed the same jump - losing all/most of your lives.

    Not due to your own lack of skill - but due to how broken the game is.

    I am, by muscle memory, now used to controlling Sonic in 1/2/3/CD/Chaotix, Advance 1/2/3, all the 'classic' 2D Sonic games I can think of. This game punishes players for expecting Sonic to control how he always has.

    Generations' classic mode is like playing someone's bad fan game impression of Sonic physics, wrapped in some bizarrely high-production value package that completely conflicts with the actual quality of the gameplay. This is the epitome of 'form over function'.

    12-15 years ago I already was using Game Maker Sonic fan engines that did the physics better than this. These kinds of simple, base-level, core gameplay necessities being completely ignored are why I just can't fathom the incompetence or apathy behind the team's efforts.

    3) Normal Boost use regularly throws me through the ground / out of level bounds

    So, that would make half the game something tolerable at best. Which would almost be okay, just for the pretty visuals and music, if only Boost wasn't even more broken than Classic mode.

    Sure, I never really enjoyed the Boost games, but I could at least tolerate it, if the actual game mechanic its supposed to be based behind - (y'know, the Boost itself?) - didn't cause me to completely jump out of stage boundaries about 1 out of every 7 or so times.

    And, before you say that may be an exaggeration - my friend and I got so frustrated playing it, we actually started to count - no joke. That's the actual average number we got between two different players on three different acts.

    This is, of course; not to mention the times where simply running somewhere, along a path, causes you to go out of bounds; something we've been dealing with since Sonic Adventure 1.

    SEGA: Get your physics and collision act together. It's been more than 20 years of 3D Sonic games. There's no room for excuses any more. If this is the best-rated, most community-and-fanbase loved 3D Sonic game, I'm sure glad I'm not buying or playing them anymore.

    I tried to enjoy what I could get out of this. The visuals and music are stunning. I want to fix it, but I moreso just wanted it to not be broken to start.

    4) It killed the last bit of willingness I had to continue the abusive relationship/cycle.

    Generations officially killed whatever was left of the Spirit of Sonic for me, in a continuing sense. I wish I'd never given it a chance, as to be honest, I may genuinely never try another new Sonic game again. I would actually have requested a refund on Steam if I had not exceeded two hours of gameplay. I will not likely pick it up again.

    I'm okay with being a Classic Sonic fan as to what a Classic Simpsons fan is, who only watches Seasons 1-10 and barely acknowledges anything after, because it's technical quality is objectively just not the quality it used to be - maybe I'll just stick to what SEGA put out for their own consoles, and cut it off there.

    I don't have a lot of time to play games in my life. I work full-time, do both hobbyist and professional game dev on the side, and I am getting an independent music label off the ground.

    Generations is actually the first new game from the last *ten years* I've given its solid hours, except Mania, which is a fan game that SEGA somehow got smart enough to buy.

    And I was honestly so existentially disappointed by Generations - especially as a developer.

    I honestly don't see myself playing, and I definitely won't be purchasing - any new games, just in general - for a while. And that's not some emo rant, I promise; it's more of, well, getting old, and having standards for quality, I guess?

    I much prefer just making games, the way I like to make them (e.g. not broken) - and playing old-school games on retro systems. There's more than enough of those for me to explore, I have no interest whatsoever in playing games online, and, subjectively; my gaming tastes couldn't be farther from what this generation is producing.

    Overall, nothing about Generations really matters to me; except for its cementing my understanding that SEGA, for all the shine and polish they keep on them; keeps shamelessly releasing fundamentally broken products on the core gameplay level. Fans fix them a couple years later, and the game is suddenly considered 'not that bad'.

    I honestly feel like its been an abusive cycle/relationship for a while between SEGA and fans, and Generations' fundamentally broken physics, collision, and game engine were the final letdowns I needed to tell SEGA to just go get its car keys pack a bag and leave my house. I've been fooled for the last time.

    tl;dr -
    1) Generations' Classic physics are by-the-numbers, objectively broken compared to the actual Classic Sonic games it claims to honour
    2) After testing multiple levels, Boost Mode sends me out of bounds approximately 1 out of every 7 uses. often sent out of the level geometry during regular play, losing lives
    3) I'm just tired of seeing SEGA publish totally broken games. I don't have time to play games a lot, this was the new only game from within the last 10-11 years I've even purchased, and I feel extremely disappointed I gave it a shot.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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