Bashing Sonic 3 & Knuckles OTHER THAN THE BARREL

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Sid Starkiller, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. Crappy Blue Luigi

    Crappy Blue Luigi

    mighty is my son. thanks Member
    Sonic & Knuckles is the worst classic Sonic game. By far.

    • None of the zones feature water, making the bubble shield feel like vestigial design.
    • The locales trend more generic than previous entries, a place where the more realistic take on level art makes settings feel less interesting.
    • Disliking the music from any of the classic Sonic games is such a foreign opinion to me that I can't even parody this one
    • The bosses are lethargic, most of them waiting games. Lava Reef with the rock platforms in the lava must be the worst classic Sonic boss.
    • Far too many, far too momentum-ending gimmicks. The pulley machines in Mushroom Hill, the monkey bars and giant screw platforms in Flying Battery, pushing blocks and door openers in Sandopolis... I really could go on.
    • The level design is significantly more cramped and filled with hallways than Sonic 3's, resulting in the most start-and-stop gameplay in the series since Sonic 1. The only zones not guilty of this are Mushroom Hill and Sky Sanctuary, but their exceptions don't excuse the rest of the game.
    • The Doomsday is horrible. It's just not worth the effort to get to it.
    Thankfully Sonic 3 can be played by itself.

    I kid, I kid.

    Sonic 2 is the worst classic Sonic game.

    Not kidding about the rest of the post.
     
  2. I personally like the S3 miniboss theme better because it feels more... funky? I dunno, there's just something about it that resonates more with me.
     
  3. nineko

    nineko

    I am the Holy Cat Tech Member
    To this day, I still don't get why so many people dislike Marble Garden, it's probably my favourite zone in the whole series. It's long, yeah? I like to run up and down those slopes as super/hyper Sonic, there are hundreds of rings to collect and many paths to explore, even back when I played S3&K for the first time (in 1997, in the S&K Collection), I always went to Marble Garden via the level select of my completed save file whenever I just wanted to casually play. To me, Marble Garden is the pinnacle of classic Sonic.

    Also, I'll take the non-interlaced 2P levels over that garbled mess of pixels which is Sonic 2's VS mode every day, thank you very much.
     
  4. Mana

    Mana

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    When it comes to 3 and Knuckles the only things I have problems with are small nitpicks like no exclusive Super Sonic song or the fact that Sonic's sprite is extremely ugly. Both are things that Sonic 3 Complete fixed and made up for.

    I guess some of the level design for the S&K half is too claustrophobic for me? But that's on purpose because the game slowly becomes less about just running through the stages and going through painful moments then getting a big reward if you can handle it flawlessly.

    Good idea for a controversial topic especially on here though lol.
     
  5. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

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    It’s the best 2D platformer of all time, and I’ve had this opinion since I first got exposed to it through Sonic Mega Collection. Any flaws are just minor stuff that the Sonic 3 Complete hack takes care of. Sonic Mania was pretty close to capturing S3&K’s magic but S3&K is still king imo
     
  6. Graxer

    Graxer

    Member
    It is my favourite of the classic games and the only one which I still enjoy playing to this day (and possibly my favourite Sonic game besides Mania which takes everything I love about S3&K and makes it even better). Saying that, Sonic 3's level design drops in quality from Marble Garden onwards. However, all levels in Sonic & Knuckles are pure gold in my opinion (yes, even Sandopolis Act 2). I also think that the Blue Sphere special stages are the best in the entire franchise!
     
  7. My problem with Marble Garden is actually the stupid gimmick with the blue spinning plataform. It annoys me SO MUCH. It is very hard to control.
     
  8. Sonic 3&K was a masterpiece of it's generation, I cannot bring myself to critique it :(
     
  9. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I forgot to mention that I really don't like Blue Sphere. It isn't fun for me, and it seems like an even more absurd test of instant reflexes than the halfpipe.
     
  10. Ravenfreak

    Ravenfreak

    Sucks at sprite art Tech Member
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    O'Fallon Mo
    Hacking Sonic Drift, Writer at Sonic Cage Dome
    We went straight from Sonic 1 and CD to 3K? Someone should make a topic for Sonic 2, since it's the most overrated classic Sonic game. The only thing I don't like about Sonic 3 alone is the god awful mini boss theme and Knuckles theme. That's literally the only thing I can bash about the best game in the series. (Well besides the barrel but meh.) Oh and I kind of wish the multiplayer stages were longer. That's about all I can bash, because Sonic looks the best in this game and the general art style is just miles better than 1 and 2. Oh and one more thing, the tops in Marble Garden Zone suck and they're a pain to control. Edit: I wonder if just having a megathread where we bash the classic 16 bit games should be made... I'm sure someone is going to come along and make one for Sonic 2 eventually. In fact, the 8-bit titles could use their own topic too... :V
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  11. Just beat Sonic 3K for the third time this year today. The ONLY problems I have with it are that Sandopolis drags on for a bit too long, the Lava Reef boss is too much of a waiting game, and the Death Egg boss can go eat shit. Other than that? It's an absolute masterpiece. It's Sonic's Empire Strikes Back. I think it is, without question, the best game in the entire series.

    The level progression is really creative. Angel Island gets you eased in. Hydrocity gives you some velocity. Marble Garden ignites your platforming chops before Carnival Night puts them to the test. IceCap is a great "calm before the storm" level, before you reach Eggman's current base of operations and it gets intense. After stopping the Death Egg's relaunch, you're thrown into Mushroom Hill and Flying Battery to give you a sense of reprieve and prepare for what's to come. Both Sandopolis and Lava Reef then get insanely brutal as you reach the end. Lava Reef Act 2's music has this brilliant endgame feel to it. Then all the epic plot beats come out in the remaining levels. Doomsday is also possibly the most epic final boss in the series, in my humble opinion, for the feeling of urgency and the decreasing ring counter.

    It's my third favorite game. Hands down.
     
  12. Josh

    Josh

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    Flying Battery's elevator lifts are one of the worst bits of level design in the 2D series. At least with Metropolis, you're powering the lift and dodging (infuriating) Asteron spikes. At least with Lava Reef, the lifts are short rides where your spin dash makes 'em go faster.

    [​IMG]

    In Flying Battery, you're just... standing there. Doing nothing. Sometimes, for long enough that the idle animation starts playing. The level design of a Sonic game should never allow that to happen.
     
  13. Mana

    Mana

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    Looks like the cycle has evolved to the point where S3 and K went from the single greatest achievement of the Sonic franchise to being "meh" because that's just what happens in the Sonic fandom.

    Can't wait to see Colors go back to being a good game in another year or so as well.
     
  14. Palas

    Palas

    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
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    I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement here that all classic games are incredibly good and we're all being nitpicky about the games, all in good fun. It's not that serious, and Sonic Colors will never be a good game.
     
  15. Blasphemy! Sonic Colors is fantastic.
     
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  16. Mana

    Mana

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    Brodie I just read like 4 comments in this topic alone saying the game is overrated and no good and one dude said he never even beat it his first time. Gonna bookmark this topic and come back in a year and see if this is the start of a trend.

    The only reversal I ever agreed with was CD because I never got the hype but it'll be interesting to see what happens from here.
     
  17. Billy

    Billy

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    Yeah but most of these posts are like "S3&K is great but...". It's okay to think a game is great, but also acknowledge it has flaws. Chillax.
     
  18. Mana

    Mana

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    I agree with you in that I never thought the game was PERFECT either. Sonic's ugly sprite being the most glaring thing I can't avoid except when I'm playing S3 Complete and AIR which let me go for more of a 1/2 design.

    I don't think you remember but CD/Color becoming "bad games" started with "They're great BUT..." then people just started accumulating the negatives of them and now they're just not fondly looked at. I'm just curious to see where this rabbit hole goes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  19. Josh

    Josh

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    I don't think that's right.

    Sonic CD was spoken of in extremely flattering terms by people who loved its take on a more exploration-focused 2D Sonic game. And since the only way to play it was on Sega CD, and not many people had one, it was this mythical "lost" 2D Sonic to a lot of people. Over time, as Sega CD emulators came into prominence, and ESPECIALLY once a wider array of people got to play it via Gems Collection and the 2011 remaster, we've settled into a more even consensus.

    And the people who hated Colors and wanted Sonic to be edgy again were ALWAYS there. Remember "TrueSonicSpirit"? They've just gotten a lot older, more articulate, and more nostalgic about their childhoods. And lately, they've seemed to recognize that if they can make it out like the past 10 years have been an abject failure (even worse than 06 you guys!), then Forces' negative reception might be their one shot to actually get some version of what they want. There's not actually that many of them, but they make a LOT OF NOISE.

    ANYWAY. I digress.

    I think it's telling that among hardcore Genesis-era fans, Sonic 3 is often considered the best game in the series, while Sonic 2 is more beloved outside of, y'know, US.

    And I think it's because (at least until you hit Oil Ocean or so) Sonic 2 was so much more approachable. Sonic 3 has loads more depth and variety and a higher skill ceiling, but its levels are so enormous that basically all of 'em can be a slog until you break through that ceiling. A friend of mine loved 1, 2, and CD, but couldn't finish 3 because he kept running out of time. Whereas with Sonic 2, you'll breeze through Emerald Hill, be rewarded with one of the speediest stages in the series in Chemical Plant, and after that water section, you won't really hit a difficulty spike until Mystic Cave.

    Put another way, Sonic 3 is the better game on your 20th replay, but you'll probably have WAY more fun with Sonic 2 on your first or second. And while Mania's zones are still freakin' HUGE, I think it intentionally tries to bake in more of that Sonic 2-style approachability. It balances a high skill ceiling with stages that are still speedy, rewarding, and free-flowing if you're NOT quite so skillful, and I think that's partly why it's so highly thought of by fans and non-fans alike.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  20. Mana

    Mana

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    I always said CD was the best classic game in terms of everything EXCEPT gameplay which is the most important part in a videogame. Over the last two years we started getting more and more "CD is great BUT the level design could have been stronger" to "CD is the worst game in the classic line and has nothing good to offer". Started with the naunced discussion and slowly became black and white.

    Also Colors hate seems to come down more to level design than anything else. If that had better reception I bet everything from the kiddy storyline to the new voices still growing into their roles wouldn't even be brought up as topics of debate in it's quality.

    You've been into the franchise much longer than me as a result of being alive longer though so you may have some in the know knowledge on how this works that I'm missing though but this seems to be standard.