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Attention - someone is uploading hacks onto a page to get money from i

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Abyssal Leopard, May 4, 2016.

  1. Abyssal Leopard

    Abyssal Leopard

    Alright. I know I haven't posted for a while, but I recently came across something that drew my attention (thanks to JoenickROS, I owe him one), and which I particularily didn't like at all. Apparently, there is a guy who randomly makes covers of hacks and sells them without apparent permission of the creators. Even though so, he claims he has notified us about it and that we have agreed to do this. I'm not sure if it's the case of any of you here, but it definitely wasn't mine. Anyhow, a good example of this is my little baby here:

    The main reason why I'm writing this is probably obvious. I know SEGA has legalised the upload of hacks into the Steam Community thing and such, so they obviously know about us. However, there are some hacks (in which mine is included) where we use content from other franchises, without having been given permission in terms of copyright-related stuff. This could get both them in trouble, yes, but we, and by we I mean the major part of the community affected by this, are also in this, since they have claimed they have our permission, which I reiterate, that wasn't my case. Why? My personal project was made with the sole purpose of entertaining fans of the Sonic franchise, with a hack made with our heart, by our being the whole team, since it wasn't only my merit. I never had intentions to sell it (which is why in the disclaimer we told the player to notify us in case it was bought so that we could do something about it in the first place, though I'm not sure if this guy has manipulated our work so that the text has been edited). We never had the intention of disrespecting SEGA and the others' copyright - instead, we made this hack because we have always had this passion about Sonic The Hedgehog, which has been part of our respective childhoods.

    I guess that was enough beating around the bush. What I precisely wanted to ask is what do you guys think about this, and I'd like suggestions about what I should do about this. Think about it - our whole community might get in trouble with something we haven't done. Therefore, I think I had, in a way, to let you guys know about this big problem.

    Other examples of hacks affected by this are Sonic Classic Heroes, Sonic Bro-Tro, The S Factor, Knuckles in Sonic The Hedgehog (renamed as Knuckles The Echidna) among others.

    So yeah, let me know about things.

    EDIT: Oopsie Daisie, I think I posted this in the wrong place. In this case, would anybody do me the favour of moving the topic in the right place?
  2. amphobius


    doing more important things with my life Member
    Has been a so-called problem for years. It's nothing new and it's never going away.

    And honestly? I'd buy one. Considering the labour that goes into getting a cart, flashing the rom, getting boxes, sometimes having to design art for the box, print stickers and whatever goes else into these repros - they're done to a high enough standard that I would put one on my shelf.

    EDIT: Also going to point out that in this specific case the seller is making these to order without a stock of them. Meaning there's people who clearly want these things.


    The cute one here Tech Member
    I would buy one of these too, provided the person is someone who has actually gotten permission to sell these and is known for being a good person in general, but not from a person like them. I cant be sure if it is of good quality or if everything will work correctly.
  4. Animemaster


    Prison bitch! Member
    Sonic 1 Revelation
    As I said to you IIRC, I do understand that side of things. But what this seems to me, is that this is happening with out the hackers consent. What if he doesn't want this to be put on cartridge and sold to people?. He could at least "ask" before assuming, AND claiming that he did get permission when in this situation he did not. Of couse, it's like saying don't torrent this don't torrent that. If you are going to get away with it, of course people are going to do. Doesn't make it right though.w

    And this is the problem, no permission was granted. I mean, if he asked and the creator said "Ok" then at least he was giving permission. In this situation that is not the case, and even if he did ask if he said no, he should respect that and not do it.
  5. Tweedle


    I'd totally buy one too. I do see where you guys are coming from when it comes to permission and agree, but on the other hand I understand why they might not ask. Why risk the creator saying no? Especially when it comes to the creator not selling any physical copies themselves, it just seems like they don't want other people profiting for their content for no reason, Which is totally fine and the creators choice, but I can see why they might not ask and risk it.

    Not saying its okay or anything like that, and I do wish they asked, I just see why they might not.
  6. REPO Man

    REPO Man

    Also, ROM hacker Pacnsacdave has been selling repros of his hacks for a while now, many of which are only available as repro carts! I know, I know, he does NES games.
  7. Tanks


    I mean. Guys. It's ROM Hacking. It's already in a legal gray area which we've consistently kinda flaunted for well over a decade now. You don't own the work and technically it's a blackmarket distribution. You don't have any real basis to argue against someone who directly derives and profits off your work. Unless you're talking community honor which has been a very real and powerful argument here since time immemorial.

    Yeah, it sucks, I totally agree, but you're the one that chose to devote your time and effort into creating a hack based on someone else's paid efforts. You may not be seeking profit, but you, in a sense, agreed to have no controls for what happens to your product in the end. On a side note, it still amazes me that we still haven't fully grasped how stupendous it is that SEGA has basically embraced a community that openly uses its IPs without consent.
  8. Ravenfreak


    2 Edgy 4 U Tech Member
    O'Fallon Mo
    Sonic 1 Game Gear Disassembly
    Call me crazy for saying this, but if any of my hacks were to be sold as repros then I'd honestly be honored. Because that means my work is pretty good to the point where people are willing to buy copies of something I worked on. Yes I know it's not legal, and I don't get any of the money but I'd think it be cool. :v:
  9. REPO Man

    REPO Man

    I just realized something...

    I don't know if these are being sold for profit or if any profits are going directly into expansion of their respective operations.

    Honestly, I don't know how much it costs to make a repro cart using brand-new parts, printing up labels and manuals, and ordering the boxes or cases the games come in. Also throw in the cost of electricity and internet used in this endeavor. And if there IS any profit, they could probably be putting that towards expanding into adding new titles, offering titles for other consoles (most sites usually start off with at least 1-2 consoles, usually NES, Super NES, Genesis or some combination of the three, only to eventually offer all three AND move onto titles from GB/GBC, GBA and some even sell MasterSystem repros) and so on. Many even do custom repros. One site also allows one to make a custom multicart (4 games on one Super NES cart).

    But for titles where I can't just buy a legit cart (I.e. fan translations, ROM hacks), I think I'd rather deal with a flash cart. Unless I had the money and space to invest in repro carts... or even the time, money, effort and know-how on making my own. But then you risk ending up with a cart that has an old version of a ROM hack or a newer translation comes out for a fan-translation, or maybe it's like buying a Metroid hack before Metroid mOTHER came out. Or buying Shin Megami Tensei after Aeon Genesis put out their fan translation, only for a host of various fixes (like one that changes the spell names to better fit with more recent titles) and hacks (like the one that allows one to pull up the Automap with the L and R buttons).
  10. winterhell


    I would be ok with this only if the original authors of the hack AND Sega are ok. There is a thing where, if anyone is selling your IP without authorization, and you don't do anything about it you can lose the IP due to negligence or whatever.

    As far as production costs, the difference between the carts is the binary you flash them with, the image on the sticker and the image on the case cover insert.
    What internet and electricity costs?

    And how much would the parts costs? The memory is the most expensive one, with 4GB eeprom selling for $4. I don't know how much it costs to have 4 MB memory with the compatible interface nowadays, but it wouldn't be much higher, right? And then $2 for the plastic.

    Btw in 95, a 4MB pirate cartridge was $15-$20 bucks. Sure, mass production and everything, but that memory was still super expensive.
  11. These carts are an awesome idea. The only way I can see it being fair though is if SEGA & the hack/fangame creator received a cut of the profits.
  12. MarkeyJester


    Original, No substitute Resident Jester
    Honestly? This right here ^

    Consider it from this perspective; as a child who grew up playing games for the console, there is a huge chance that you at one point in time, always dreamed of making your own version or a brand new game on the system. But now it's here, we all pretty much take it for granted. Particularly here in the Sonic community whose knowledge is no longer actually "hacking" and literally more "reprogramming", we have a fantastic opertunity and a pretty rich library of content, guides, tutorials, tools, and this provides us with a fantastic culture, in addition to this, the original copyright holders and patents are not bounding or preventing us from archieving our long term childhood goals. We are in the BEST position, similar to the Jungle music scene and its heavy use of the amen break. But as always, we forget what we've really gotten.

    It is true and understandable why many get upset, when they find their hard work being sold by a third party, without any form of concent. However, that situation should be irrelevant to you, since it's nothing more than an irrational fear. You do not lose anything from that happening, and I would like to say that you do not gain anything, but you do in that your name is spread further around the globe, making you more of an icon in your own right. The bottom line deal is, you have been given the freedom to do something that is meant to be improbable, and it is literally a dream come true. In exchange, you will be given no support for the maintainence of the content. In my eyes, the pro here outweighs the con, so don't be spoilt, don't take it from granted, appreciate it, and most of all, don't worry, worry simply damages your childhood dream that you've obtained here, by making you paranoid over something that has no effect on you beyond an emotional and irrational fear.
  13. LocalH


    roxoring your soxors Tech Member
    That actually only applies to trademark. You're not required to police every instance of copyright infringement in order to keep your copyright.
  14. Lostgame


    producer/turnablist. homebrew dev. cosplayer. Oldbie
    Toronto, ON
    The O.I.C.
    I believe I *actually* saw a ROM of Sonic Megamix at A&C games in Toronto.

    Apparently there's a guy around Toronto who actually does this, and you can ask him to make a hardware-copy ROM hack of any Genesis title yourself :3

    I can't decide whether this is awesome or I should be pissed.
  15. Tweedle


    I don't see why you should be pissed, Especially if it was a personal service type job. If I'm too lazy to make a physical copy of a rom hack should someone be upset that I'm just getting someone else to do it for me and me paying them to?

    Also if Sega doesn't care I can't believe a rom hacker would, It's literally a version of their own game being sold, and they don't care. I don't want to invalidate anyones feelings though, and I don't make rom hacks myself so I don't know how it would feel, I know it takes hard work but so does making a game, especially from scratch, and if Sega doesn't mind I feel you shouldn't either. Shrug.
  16. Aquaslash


    <The Has-been Legend> Moderator
    I wanted to be upset, but these covers he's making are pretty legit.
  17. redhotsonic


    Also known as RHS Tech Member
    United Kingdom
    Thanks to Dandaman955 for bringing it to my attention, but my multiplayer hack, Sonic Bash, is now up for sale too!

    Not too fussed it's up there. In fact, if it was an EU (or a JP cover), I'd be tempted to buy it =P
  18. ELS


    He should at least give a few freebies to the hackers, if this were me though I'd feel awful if I didn't slip a % to the creator under the table.