All Programming Discussion

Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by Athelstone, Apr 24, 2008.

  1. LOst

    LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=428247:date=Mar 19 2010, 07:22 PM:name=Synergy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Synergy @ Mar 19 2010, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428247"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The rings and mines aren't procedurally generated at the moment, those come from objects I've exported from Maya, so they could either be complex models or as LOst points out, billboards could be used instead (might be a little easier on people's hardware too). With regards texturing, it's the next thing on my list; I was going to procedurally generate the tube's texture map as it's not particularly complicated and also would allow stage editors to specify their own colours for the three components: base colour, grid colour (usually the darker colour) and light colour (usually yellow). I also made a shader for the tube that fades it to a darker colour in the distance, per the screenshot, but also allows the yellow colour on the tube to remain unfaded, as per the original stages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That sounds awesome! Keep up the good work!
     
  2. Hamneggs

    Hamneggs

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    Hey if you are still wondering how to nail down the physics in the Special stage, I think this may help:

    <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Physics_Guide" target="_blank">Sonic Physics Guide</a>
     
  3. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    <!--quoteo(post=428375:date=Mar 19 2010, 03:44 PM:name=Hamneggs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hamneggs @ Mar 19 2010, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428375"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey if you are still wondering how to nail down the physics in the Special stage, I think this may help:

    <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Physics_Guide" target="_blank">Sonic Physics Guide</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Does any of that apply to the Special Stages, though?
     
  4. LOst

    LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=428381:date=Mar 19 2010, 11:59 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Mar 19 2010, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428381"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=428375:date=Mar 19 2010, 03:44 PM:name=Hamneggs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hamneggs @ Mar 19 2010, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428375"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey if you are still wondering how to nail down the physics in the Special stage, I think this may help:

    <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Physics_Guide" target="_blank">Sonic Physics Guide</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Does any of that apply to the Special Stages, though?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No, don't think so.


    I believe the Special Stage to be fairly static. If the jump height is the same, no matter how long you press the jump button, then it shouldn't be a problem to do anything Special Stage related.

    I still think we need to see texturing first. A demo can also shade some light how well the engine (techniques) will work on everyones computer. Even if that engine has the text "The programmer had a nap" instead of a playable Sonic.
     
  5. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Wait a second, regarding the boss arenas, why isn't this being considered for 16:9 mode?
    <!--quoteo(post=409932:date=Feb 13 2010, 04:12 PM:name=T.Q.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (T.Q. @ Feb 13 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=409932"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3550/8bossb.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So this is a 16:10 monitor, but just adding a bit more of vertical scrolling does sound like the most feasable idea, as long as the hud stays in place when zooming in.
     
  6. Synergy

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    <!--quoteo(post=428683:date=Mar 20 2010, 12:51 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Mar 20 2010, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428683"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still think we need to see texturing first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Like so?

    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/sb/s2ss_tex_01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/sb/s2ss_tex_02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/sb/s2ss_tex_03.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
     
  7. zemulii

    zemulii

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    Oh wow. That looks <I>really</I> cool :). Thank god you showed up ;).
     
  8. Vincent

    Vincent

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    Welcome to S2HD Synergy. ^^
     
  9. LOst

    LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=428699:date=Mar 20 2010, 04:25 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Mar 20 2010, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428699"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait a second, regarding the boss arenas, why isn't this being considered for 16:9 mode?
    <!--quoteo(post=409932:date=Feb 13 2010, 04:12 PM:name=T.Q.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (T.Q. @ Feb 13 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=409932"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3550/8bossb.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So this is a 16:10 monitor, but just adding a bit more of vertical scrolling does sound like the most feasable idea, as long as the hud stays in place when zooming in.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sorry, not too keen on scaling the graphics (the quality decreases depending on how good your graphics card is, where the best result is blurry graphics, and the worse is TERRIBLE). The direction we will take will probably redesign the boss timings instead. Many things changed when we took the HD direction, as pixels are no longer pixels, timings will change no matter what we do really (it is not just bosses, but every slope Sonic runs in will change the gameplay, little by little). It is better to focus on making the game as close to Sonic 2, but in a HD way, instead of restricing on the old game (Sonic would run stairways if he only could touch the original pixels).

    I will make sure the bosses are tested by you guys (as many times as needed), so that they are considered worthy. Only the very last resort will lead to scaling.


    <!--quoteo(post=428713:date=Mar 20 2010, 05:29 PM:name=Synergy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Synergy @ Mar 20 2010, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428713"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=428683:date=Mar 20 2010, 12:51 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Mar 20 2010, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428683"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still think we need to see texturing first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Like so?

    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/sb/s2ss_tex_01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/sb/s2ss_tex_02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/sb/s2ss_tex_03.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I love how you made it possible to change colors of the halftube! I hope it will work on most 3D hardware. Then it's a win!
     
  10. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    <!--quoteo(post=428724:date=Mar 20 2010, 09:59 AM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Mar 20 2010, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428724"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=428699:date=Mar 20 2010, 04:25 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Mar 20 2010, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428699"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait a second, regarding the boss arenas, why isn't this being considered for 16:9 mode?
    <!--quoteo(post=409932:date=Feb 13 2010, 04:12 PM:name=T.Q.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (T.Q. @ Feb 13 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=409932"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3550/8bossb.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So this is a 16:10 monitor, but just adding a bit more of vertical scrolling does sound like the most feasable idea, as long as the hud stays in place when zooming in.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sorry, not too keen on scaling the graphics (the quality decreases depending on how good your graphics card is, where the best result is blurry graphics, and the worse is TERRIBLE).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->...But, by requirements of the S2HD staff, all the final art will be made in vectors. So if the sprites are saved at twice the size, everything would actually look better when zoomed in instead of blurrier.
     
  11. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    Very nice proof of concept Synergy. How much flexibility is there around the shading? The is pretty flat in all the examples you've put up so far, not sure if this is the just a template you're working on or if that can be tweaked. The same goes for the geometry of the tube. There's visible jagged edges where the polygons connect. Can you up the subdivisions to smooth those out?
     
  12. Synergy

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    <!--quoteo(post=428743:date=Mar 20 2010, 03:52 PM:name=Canned Karma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canned Karma @ Mar 20 2010, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428743"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very nice proof of concept Synergy. How much flexibility is there around the shading? The is pretty flat in all the examples you've put up so far, not sure if this is the just a template you're working on or if that can be tweaked. The same goes for the geometry of the tube. There's visible jagged edges where the polygons connect. Can you up the subdivisions to smooth those out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You missed a word so I'm not sure what it is you were describing as flat ;) If you mean rings and mines then yes, they're flat-shaded only because their temporary shader just outputs a straight colour, but they can be made to use any shader required. Again the tube can use any shader, it currently takes the procedurally-generated texture as a sampler parameter and then just fades it to a darker colour based on distance in the pixel shader. Because everything in the tube is also generated procedurally you can specify the number of subdivisions for both the semi-circle curve and the extrusion of the Bezier curves. Obviously the higher the subdivisions the higher the polygon count so perhaps this could be automatically scaled at runtime based on the player's hardware.
     
  13. Gambit

    Gambit

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    <!--quoteo(post=428729:date=Mar 20 2010, 10:18 AM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Mar 20 2010, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428729"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=428724:date=Mar 20 2010, 09:59 AM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Mar 20 2010, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428724"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=428699:date=Mar 20 2010, 04:25 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Mar 20 2010, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428699"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait a second, regarding the boss arenas, why isn't this being considered for 16:9 mode?
    <!--quoteo(post=409932:date=Feb 13 2010, 04:12 PM:name=T.Q.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (T.Q. @ Feb 13 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=409932"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*image*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So this is a 16:10 monitor, but just adding a bit more of vertical scrolling does sound like the most feasable idea, as long as the hud stays in place when zooming in.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sorry, not too keen on scaling the graphics (the quality decreases depending on how good your graphics card is, where the best result is blurry graphics, and the worse is TERRIBLE).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->...But, by requirements of the S2HD staff, all the final art will be made in vectors. So if the sprites are saved at twice the size, everything would actually look better when zoomed in instead of blurrier.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    While we could save things at twice the size required, that would pose a few problems.

    1) Not everything is full vector, so the raster elements wouldn't scale up well at all.
    2) Having to load even bigger files would be more taxing on the system.
    3) When vector graphics are scaled up they don't become blurry, but you can start seeing each individual part of something, so they kinda break down in their own way. Here's a comparison of what vector art looks like when it's been zoomed in, and what the same thing looks like after it's been rasterized.

    <img src="http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3199/83052602.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
     
  14. steveswede

    steveswede

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    <!--quoteo(post=428724:date=Mar 20 2010, 02:59 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Mar 20 2010, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428724"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, not too keen on scaling the graphics (the quality decreases depending on how good your graphics card is, where the best result is blurry graphics, and the worse is TERRIBLE). The direction we will take will probably redesign the boss timings instead. Many things changed when we took the HD direction, as pixels are no longer pixels, timings will change no matter what we do really (it is not just bosses, but every slope Sonic runs in will change the gameplay, little by little). It is better to focus on making the game as close to Sonic 2, but in a HD way, instead of restricing on the old game (Sonic would run stairways if he only could touch the original pixels).

    I will make sure the bosses are tested by you guys (as many times as needed), so that they are considered worthy. Only the very last resort will lead to scaling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I guess this may be the final nail in the coffin over the Aquatic Ruin Boss. I hope the final decision for the game is an extended boss area, as well for the other boss arenas. It's the most logical in my mind.

    @Synergy

    I'm liking what I'm seeing. Keep it up.
     
  15. Hamneggs

    Hamneggs

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    Ahem...

    This is a fun little mockup:
    <img src="http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab272/wifflwaffl/awesome.jpg?t=1269119337" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Edit:

    Here is a better one, with a revised backdrop.
    <img src="http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab272/wifflwaffl/awesome2.jpg?t=1269120928" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    And here is the backdrop itself. It's a modified version of one already submitted. Sorry I forgot your name, whosever it is.
    <img src="http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab272/wifflwaffl/Backdrop.jpg?t=1269121288" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    And I HATE photobucket. Look at that crappy quality. And the backdrop was a much higher resolution before I uploaded it.
     
  16. Drex

    Drex

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    I'm going to have to strongly disagree. The 'better' one looks even worse. There is just way too much going on for such a simple layout.
     
  17. Hamneggs

    Hamneggs

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    <!--quoteo(post=429196:date=Mar 21 2010, 03:39 AM:name=Drex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drex @ Mar 21 2010, 03:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=429196"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to have to strongly disagree. The 'better' one looks even worse. There is just way too much going on for such a simple layout.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Man, but what else is there? I'll make one with the normal background. It's bland as hell.

    Here it is:
    <img src="http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab272/wifflwaffl/awesome3.jpg?t=1269172825" border="0" class="linked-image" />


    Now what I was thinking:

    Synergy, is it possible to have the "pipe" reflect a skybox(something like the first one), and sonic and tails? Just wondering how that would look... And it still needs those ball and tube things, Just sayin'--I would have forgotten them if I were programming the SS.
     
  18. That BG was made by me, and It's missing two squares =P.
     
  19. Synergy

    Synergy

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    I was wondering how a faint reflection might look - something to think about later on, and yep I know the ball and tube thingies are missing. Btw I took this screenshot of the full diamond background for reference, I think it pretty much wraps vertically and horizontally from there.

    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/sb/diamonds.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
     
  20. LOst

    LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=429257:date=Mar 21 2010, 05:50 PM:name=Synergy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Synergy @ Mar 21 2010, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=429257"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was wondering how a faint reflection might look - something to think about later on, and yep I know the ball and tube thingies are missing. Btw I took this screenshot of the full diamond background for reference, I think it pretty much wraps vertically and horizontally from there.

    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/sb/diamonds.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Don't forget the last Special Stage, when the emerald is about to be taken, the background flashes (using palette animation)